March 3, 2022

3 Key Shifts to Make in Your Outbound Sales Approach

3 Key Shifts to Make in Your Outbound Sales Approach

In today’s episode of the ‘Sales Samurai’ podcast, host Sam Capra, who helps marketing leaders in the retail space go beyond the sale/transaction, talks with guest Jason Bay, Chief Prospecting Officer at Blissful Prospecting. They are discussing the three key shifts (identify, engage and create) to make in your outbound approach. They also talk about the challenges around technology.

Episode Highlights

  • 01:14 – Sam says, one can't close the deal unless they get a meeting; everything starts with the prospecting piece of things.
  • 03:34 – Jason says, it's kind of accepted to get a call during business hours if it's related to business.
  • 05:19 – Jason got used to being okay with interrupting someone.
  • 07:03 – In the past 5-10 years whatever shift we have seen in sales, has it gone in the right direction for the better in sales, enquires Sam.
  • 10:15 – We need to find a balance between mass blast and customizing everything. 
  • 12:39 – It's a big deal to get a client, so it makes sense to do this type of segmentation, says Jason.
  • 14:52 – We don't always actually need to personalize to the individual, mentions Jason.
  • 16:50 - There's a whole personalization and relevance kind of thing and he looks at those things interchangeably. 
  • 18:20 – Sam enquires, how as an individual sales professional, should he think of quality first, what's the thought process behind that?
  • 20:30 - We should be thinking about how can we scale the personalization that we’re doing not how we can do personalization at scale.
  • 23:10 – We need to be like not how personalized can we get, but what's the minimum we can get away with and still be increased by 1%, 3%, or 4%.
  • 24:18 - We have to think about how do we optimize the hours of our week during the time that we do spend doing outbound because we can't be everything for everyone.
  • 26:38 - When we can shift the conversation to what the other person cares about, that's how we get people to talk about themselves, says Jason.
  • 28:04 – Jason states the priority drop is how we can get this person talking about themselves.
  • 30:38 – Jason can shift the conversation away from talking about him by talking about how we help people that we help are into in the problems that they have.
  • 34:50 – What we need to think about is if we're asking for 30 minutes of this person's time what is going to make that time worth it, states Jason.
  • 36:45 - What kind of insights do you share that are helpful for them even if they decided not to use our product or service.
  • 41:10 – People try to overcomplicate what we're doing with outbound, says Jason.

Three Key Points

  1. We need to get good at figuring out if our target market is this big circle. We need to figure out what the segments are, and how can we find patterns between people?
  2. We need to find a balance in how can we still take advantage of the technology that allows us to automate a lot of stuff and make the workflow a lot easier, and not have to customize everything.
  3. Jason highlights – he has a good system for identifying good fit opportunities. He has got some tools at his disposal through phone, email, or social to engage and start a conversation with and he’s able to create opportunities out of it and do a little bit of projection.

Tweetable Quotes

  • “I'm going to interrupt you, but I get to decide if I am an interruption.” – Jason Bay
  • “Buying cycles are getting longer and people are buying less because it's so complicated.” – Jason Bay
  • “Prospects are starving to interact with salespeople that will listen to them no different than our personal lives.” – Jason Bay
  • “Most people sell stuff to people that do not use LinkedIn daily.” – Jason Bay
  • “When we prospect we don't think about the fact that we're just two people communicating.” – Jason Bay
  • “The values can be very different depending on who you talk with an executive value typically in insights.” – Jason Bay
  • “The best way to objection handle is to get higher level than the objection.” – Jason Bay

 Resources Mentioned

Title Sponsors:


Speaker 0    00:00:01    Coming to you from Orlando, Florida, Orlando, Florida, and streaming around the world around the world. You are now tuned in to the sales samurai podcast. The only B2B sales podcast, providing unfiltered unapologetic views and tactics directly from the sales trenches. Here's your host, Sam Capra.  
Speaker 1    00:00:30    Welcome to another episode of the sale samurai. Thanks for listening. Before we began, take a moment, subscribe and download on today's show. We're going to be discussing three key shifts to make in your outbound approach. And I have an amazing guest who we've got a long backstory, which we're probably going to get into around the challenges around technology, Mr. Jason bay, chief prospecting officer at blissful prospecting. Jason, welcome to the show, man.  
Speaker 2    00:00:54    Damn, what's up. We finally made it. This is the first time I've heard your voice, dude. This is the third time. We've our second time we've tried it. And the first time I've heard your voice  
Speaker 1    00:01:03    To hell with COVID. Now we've got technical issues. That's more important right this minute, but man, it is great to sync up with you. This is probably prospecting has kind of, you know, you can't close a deal unless you get a meeting, right? I mean, everything starts with the prospecting piece of things. So I love all the closing techniques people are talking about and deal management, but nothing starts until you get that initial prospecting meeting. So I'm really eager to talk about this because I actually saw some things was prompted me to reach out to you to have this dialogue. But before I do tell the audience a little bit about yourself, I know you're all over LinkedIn, but give the arms a little bit of a background. If you don't mind. Jason.  
Speaker 2    00:01:36    Yeah, well, a sales is the only adult job I've ever had. So my first sales job was in 2007, 2008. I was a freshman in college and I went door to door for a company selling house painting services, and they kind of made it sound like it was an internship. You get to learn how to run a business, which I did, but they didn't mention that you would be going door to door. So I got hired in like October and then February rolls around and we're supposed to launch her business in the spring. And I'm like scared shitless, man. Like I got to go around to my hometown and like talk to people that I know and I'm like slinging paint jobs, you know? And I ended up doing really well. Actually I sold about a hundred thousand dollars with the house painting services made almost 30 grand for school in a summer.  
Speaker 2    00:02:18    And I was like, dude, I love sales. And I ended up working with that company for five or six more years as a sales manager, a VP of sales. And I shifted into the marketing department and that's where I really got most of the experience that I have now in running a business. And then also, you know, more focused on outbound was I helped them build a call center. So they have this database of 120, 150,000 people that sign up for estimates every year, all across the United States. And the challenge I was tasked with was, Hey, we're a $35 million company with no formal marketing department. How about you become our marketing director. We want you to start a call center out this other side. I had no experience doing that. And, and they were just like, Hey, we have the money to help you do this, but they get after it.  
Speaker 2    00:03:02    And I really enjoyed, you know, putting together, you know, we had 15, 20 people doing calls. We had a call center manager that we put into place and this was up to 2013. That took me into a place where I was like, you know, I want to help other companies do this. And I naturally gravitated more towards B2B because without bound, it's not as cold. Right. You've got data, right emails. You've got phone numbers. I can actually research you Sam before I reach out. So it doesn't feel like a complete stranger, but you know, it's, it's okay. It's kind of accepted to get a call during business hours if it's related to business. Right? So all of that stuff was much more appealing to me. And with blissful prospecting, uh, we started out as an agency doing it for people side. I've literally sent millions of emails.  
Speaker 2    00:03:48    I've handwritten dozens and dozens and dozens of sequences for people. And that's really, really hard because I didn't, I didn't sell what they sold. So now I do more coaching and training where it's, how can we take the framework that we're going to talk a lot about today, apply that to your business, your prospects, your product, and service, that sort of stuff, and apply the framework so that you can get the results yourself, because it's going to be way better than me doing it for you because I don't sell to your prospects every day like you do. So that's how we sort of got to where we are today.  
Speaker 1    00:04:18    There is no origin story. I love better than door to door. Like I love door. I, it truly is not to say it's good, bad indifferent, but I mean, there's some grit to it. Like you like that is the key. I mean, you are literally standing face to face knocking on the door, probably over somebody's dinner hour or some time during the day, asking them to have a conversation really in the midst of mean that is a, there's some grit there. Jason. That's why I always loved those stories around the, the, the door to door piece of things. If people get their starts with that, I see rainbow vacuum cleaners door to door for a year and a half. And I had to get both the husband and the wife to be present, or I wasn't allowed to present anything. So I'm like, where's your husband? She's like, eh, he's at work. I'm like, well, I can hang around for 20 minutes. That's okay. Don't hang around. I'll be like, it's just in today's environment. It seems kind of, it seems kind of crazy, but I know they're still out there, but I love that story, man.  
Speaker 2    00:05:14    I think that you bring up a really good point too. You said knocking on someone's door while they're eating dinner. I think what I got really used to is being okay with interrupting someone, right? And that's a big hangup. I think that people have with cold calling these days, especially in B2B is, you know, I get people stand there. Jason, my company just got zoom info and we could call cell phone numbers. But I feel really uncomfortable doing that. I shouldn't do that. Right. I should call the office. I'm like, no, you got the cell phone number. Of course, you're going to call the cell phone number, you know, being okay with, yeah, I'm going to interrupt you. But I get to decide if I am an interruption, right. I am in interruption. If all I do is say cm, I've run a company called blissful prospecting. We train some really cool companies. You might know like zoom and Medallia. And I love to talk to you about our training programs. When are you free later this week? No, one's going to want to talk to you if that's how you, how you approach it. So I think like just being comfortable with like interrupting someone, knowing that I have something really good potentially to offer you, and it's your choice, whether or not you want to engage in a conversation and I'm not gonna take it personally, if he didn't want to talk to me.  
Speaker 1    00:06:15    I love that approach that, you know, obviously there's a lot of thought leaders on LinkedIn sharing different philosophies, methodologies on how to cold call and things of that nature. I always seem to gravitate to the individuals that, Hey, approach it like own it like own what you're doing. Like be confident in what you're doing. Hey, and really make it a conversation where human beings having a conversation. We're not trying to be the slick sales person that are trying to wheel and deal like that's. I mean, I'm sure that's how people have interpreted in the past, but I think that's the way I'm hoping. That's the way the market is shifting from a sales professional from a sales training standpoint is understanding that dynamic. And I love to hear that from professionals like you, Jason, and kind of your approach. So I want to dig into that a bit as well.  
Speaker 1    00:06:57    I'm curious, because you've been doing this a while. I know a lot of different things, like in your opinion, like in the shift in sale the past five, 10 years, like what have you seen? That's gone the right direction for the better in sales and then the vice versa that just has kind of gone off the rails a bit from a sales perspective, just as an industry, as a profession. Good and bad. What have you seen over the past five, 10 years, as long as you've been, you know, selling, making outbound calls, outbound emails, the whole nine yards? Well,  
Speaker 2    00:07:26    One really positive shifts that I think that a lot of that might actually be kind of frustrating for a lot of salespeople is that the B2B landscape is becoming a lot more like B to C. So Gartner has a lot of really good stuff. That's come out in the last couple of years around what the buyer's journey actually is. And it's a cluster, fuck, man, I didn't even ask you if I could use profanity in your podcast, but that's a  
Speaker 1    00:07:48    Knock yourself out.  
Speaker 2    00:07:49    Yeah. Yeah. So I call it outbound fuckery. That kind of what's going on right now is that the buying cycles are getting longer and people are buying less because it's so complicated because there's so many people involved in making the decision. So Gartner's got a, really, a lot of good insights around how there's really a trend moving towards how do I educate myself? And all of their data shows that people don't want to talk to a salesperson. They just don't now. And you could look at that as a negative thing. I actually look at that as a huge opportunity because the bar is really low right now. If you research someone and that's just the outbound side of things during the sales process, if you just show up on time, do a basic upfront contract Sandler style and say, Hey, here's what I plan on talking about Sam, what do you want to talk about?  
Speaker 2    00:08:35    And did you actually cover those things? And you follow through the bar is very, very low. So it doesn't really take much to differentiate yourself. I think that prospects are starving to interact with salespeople that will actually listen to them no different than in our personal lives. We're just starving to be heard and understood. Right? I think that's really positive that it's moving in towards a buyers are educating themselves more. I love selling to people that are more educated. Yeah. I love that. I don't want to have to educate them on, on really basic stuff. I'll do it, but I don't want to, I think the place where it's gone in a very negative way, this is the sort of double-edged sword of SAS is that SAS has made it really easy for us to automate things. And I think that we're kind of in this place right now where like the problem that people are trying to solve is that attention spans are getting shorter and shorter and shorter.  
Speaker 2    00:09:24    And the number of quality conversations, you know, bridge groups got a really a bunch of good staff. Like it's gone down by half it's like six or seven per day. I think it was like 12 per day, like eight years ago. Right? And the number of attempts to get those conversations is going up. So it's getting harder and harder to get ahold of people. And then a one extreme people are saying, Hey, the way we're going to fix this is this is a volume problem. That's where you have your connect and sells your concerts. Like the auto dialers, the, let me just load a thousand people or 40,000 people into a list and just mass blast them. But, and on the other side of that, you have the people that are really stubborn about technology that say, I'm not going to use any technology at all.  
Speaker 2    00:10:02    I'm going to hand write everything that I send to someone. I would never use a template and everyone's a special snowflake and all that kind of stuff. Right? And I think that this is actually the first shift is that you need to find a balance between mass blast and customizing everything. And I call it quality first. What you need to get really good at doing right now is figuring out if my target market is this big circle. If you envision a big circle in the middle of a piece of paper, I need to figure out what the segments are. How can I find patterns between people? And  
Speaker 1    00:10:35    An example of a pattern will give us an example, Jason, like, just even if it's rudimentary, what, give us an example of a  
Speaker 2    00:10:41    And within the target market, I'll give you a really specific example. So I work with a company that sells electronic document capture technology to clinical operations folks. So it would be like a medical device company says, Hey, I got this widget Sam, and it'll help you reduce inflammation in your body by X amount of percentage. And they want to run a clinical trial to prove it with science, because that's going to make their products sell like hotcakes. Right, right. Now, a good example of segmentation there is instead of reaching out to every medical device company, I'm going to get really specific with medical devices, companies in certain industries that have certain types of products, ones that are actually running clinical studies, I'm going to then segment by persona and say, I've got a clinical operations persona. I got a data persona. And then I got more of a below the line admin type person.  
Speaker 2    00:11:31    And now what I can do is I've taken this, this pool. Let's say it's a hundred thousand companies I could reach out to. And I've said, you know what? I'm going to approach this segment of 1000 that's clinical operations people at these specific medical devices, companies that are running a trial right now. And I could message all of them very similarly and not have to take so much time to customize everything because they have much in common. I want to pick out those pockets of commonalities. The other thing that you could do too, is I work with another company that sells automated welding solution. Okay. So the way that they filter this is they look at manufacturers and there'll be like, okay, all the manufacturers we could help who selling really hard to customize parts like trailers. For example, they'll create a segment of all the trailer companies and they'll reach out to the manufacturing departments at all these trailer companies.  
Speaker 2    00:12:19    And they'll create another segment of people that are hiring welders, MIG welders specifically. And it sounds super niche, right? But when you have an, I mean their monthly recurring revenue, when they get a, client's like 50 to a hundred thousand dollars, it's a big deal to get a client. And it gets even bigger than that, you know? So it makes sense to do this type of segmentation, but that's the thing we need to find a balance in is how can I still take advantage of the technology that allows me to automate a lot of staff and make the workflow a lot easier and not have to customize everything. But how do I do that in a way where it doesn't completely alienate the prospect and make them feel like this person reaching out to me does not understand my world, but they don't understand it. So that's the first thing that we need to do. And we can elaborate on that more if you want or wherever you want to go next,  
Speaker 1    00:13:04    Um, about that. Cause we, I was kind of looking through it, you know, as you were speaking, you bring up a couple of good points, right there, there is this mass blast mentality, Hey, let's just put it in there and hope for the best, right? Throw it up on the wall, see what sticks, right? And there's a certain element of success, right? Low hanging fruit, 1%, 2%. Then I love your comment around then there's this ultra personalized I'm going to get so personalized that I'm just going to wow with my personalization, but it's not scalable, right? There's not enough volume in doing that. So that middle ground is, I love what you're saying is the granularity is taking that target market, which might be a hundred thousand prospects, 50,000 prospects accounts and say, okay, how do I get more granular within that target market? So I can, on some scale, get more personalized or may be more relevant as you know, maybe Beck Highland would say it, get more relevant and personalized to that. Subset. Now, as I'm approaching those subsets of groups or ICP or whatever you want to call it, it is personalized, but it's somewhat personalized more at scale. Am I understanding that right? Or am I off base a bit kind of walking through that?  
Speaker 2    00:14:09    Totally. So I actually call it a hierarchy of personalization because there's different types of personalization. So like at the very, you know, if you kind of think of it, like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, like at the very bottom is the most basic thing that's merged tax. So first name and competent. That's like a minimum, like if you're not gonna put the person's first name in the email, why are you even doing anything at all?  
Speaker 1    00:14:29    I really love when I see hello first in the bracket,  
Speaker 2    00:14:34    It's like, dude, but a step up from that, you have stuff that's industry related. So things that you can talk about, cause it's the same industry. Yep. And then you have stuff that's, you know, like company related. So what's going on with this company and then you have persona, what's gone on with people with this job title and then you have the individual person at the very top. You don't always actually need to personalize to the individual. Most people, I know you might not think this for those listening, that read a lot of content on LinkedIn. Most people don't sell stuff to other salespeople and other marketers. Most people sell stuff to people that do not use LinkedIn on a daily basis. So what are you going to do to personalize to the person when there's literally nothing to fucking personalize about the person? You know what I mean? What are you going to do? Most of my clients, their prospects don't have a LinkedIn profile. That's like a resume and shows all their accomplishments. So what do you do?  
Speaker 1    00:15:25    And go to Jason? Like, why is it the goats? Like I hear this quite a bit floating on LinkedIn internally, externally in my network as well. Like, Hey, you get me more personally. Like, why is that? The now the default you're not personalized it. Like, it seems to be thrown out a lot more. Like you're not personalizing enough. And I think we've shifted, like to your point, like how, I don't know anything about this person, they don't do anything on LinkedIn. How can I learn more about this? Even if I wanted it to be personalized? Why has there been that much of a shift? Like have we just been inundated with personalization that we don't know any different? Like, what's your thoughts around that?  
Speaker 2    00:15:57    To me, that's kind of like someone that's trying to get into shape and you're like, dude, you got to eat healthier. It's like, no shit Sherlock. Like let's get really in-depth and talk about like macros. Let's talk about when you're eating, are you doing intermittent fasting? It's the same thing. It's really easy to say, oh, it's not personalized enough. Well, it's so much more nuanced than that. It really, really is. There's so much more nuance than that. It's really easy to be like, oh, that email you sent didn't have anything personalized to the person about it. What's going to make them feel special. Well, oftentimes executives, what they care about is stuff that's related to their business and the business initiatives that they're driving. Right? So that could be opening up a 10 K on using a tool like seeking alpha and looking at a quarterly report and being like, oh Sam, the CEO of XYZ company said that this quarter they're really prioritizing X, Y, and Z.  
Speaker 2    00:16:44    That's something I could put in there. That's not, that's not personal to Sam. That's relevant. That's relevant, right. It's to the company. And there's the whole personalization and relevance, you know, kind of thing. I kind of look at those things interchangeably, but the relevance, you can bring that in without talking specifics about the company too. Like if you talk about with my client that sells the automated welding solution, if you talk about the labor shortage of welders in an email, it's going to get a response. It's just going to get a response. That's what's happening across the entire industry right now,  
Speaker 1    00:17:17    Which is not personal to that individual. It's not an industry specific. That's an industry agnostic. If you will, related to welders that you can leverage across the space. Right. Jason, that's what you saying.  
Speaker 2    00:17:28    Yeah. And the other thing too, is that just a comment on the personalization and treating everyone like a special snowflake and customizing everything just because you do that, like let's say you get a 20% reply rate to that. Right. That still means that. And okay. If the open rate let's take that in consideration is probably only gonna be 40 50%. If you're dead, that means half the people never even saw those emails that you sent anyways and of the half 40% of them decided to respond to you. Yep. Let's just, wait, you got to find a balance between the two is the point. So I think with personalization people, it's just really easy thing to say right now. Oh, you should personally, well, how right. What should I be looking for? Talk to me a little cause you,  
Speaker 1    00:18:07    I love the term you use quality first and I know we've kind of covered around that a bit and you kind of give them some examples. Is there any, when you think of quote, like how should I interpret that? Like how, how has an individual, how has a sales rep how's a sales professional, should I think of quality first? Is there, what's the thought process behind that? Jason?  
Speaker 2    00:18:24    Yeah. The thought process behind this is I'm a really big fan of, uh, a guy mark Sisson. He has a book called primal blueprint. And what his philosophy is around eating is not a scientist by the way. And a lot of his advice is really bad, but his philosophy around eating, I thought it was really interesting. It was what is the minimum amount of food that I could eat in a day and still be healthy? Not what could I get away with? It's like the flip, it's the exact opposite way of looking at food than most people look at it. Well, what if you looked at outbound the same way and you said, you know what not, what is the most that I could do to customize this message? What if you just said, what is the least that I could get away with? So when you start to think about it like that, and you go up that little personalization hierarchy, you start to think about, okay, I know at the bottom I need to do merge tax.  
Speaker 2    00:19:13    I need to do first name that's table stakes. Right. That kind of stuff, industry stuff. That's super easy to talk about. What's going on in the industry right now, company like this type of company and doing research on this company, that's where it doesn't really take much research time at all to figure out what's going on. Right? So I'm thinking like those are the three basic things. And then the persona that's going to apply across multiple people. I want to do the individual personalization. That's the last resort. I'm only going to save that for my, a priority, the top 10 or 20% of people I reach out to that are like in the C suite at these companies or, or whatever, I'm going to check the first four buckets off. I can just check that off in a sequence that goes out to a bunch of people.  
Speaker 2    00:19:56    Exactly like them. Right. And then I'll add in that like kind of layer of nuance after that with the company personalization, you can find patterns too. So with this welding company, it was, are they hiring welders? Yes or no? Well, that becomes the first line of the email. Yeah. So that's the pattern you can look for every single time. Are they hiring salespeople right now? Do they have a clinical trial running? Have they raised a funding round? Is this company public or not? I mean, there's like, whatever that trigger is, you could look for that same thing. That's when people say personalization at scale, I think it's really misinterpreted. Really what you should be thinking is about like not how can I do personalization at scale? How can I scale the personalization that I'm doing? It's a little bit of a different nuance to thinking about it. Like how can I look for a pattern and then just run that pattern over and over and over and over again. So I'm thinking workflow, the way that I'd like to think of outbound is a game of odds. So any duke wrote a really good book called thinking in bets. And the whole philosophy was around. If you approach life more like a game of poker, because you can't control the hand that you're dealt and you can only control the percentage chance that you make the best of that hand.  
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Speaker 2    00:21:46    Right now, statistically you have a 1.4, 8% chance, according to gong to have a positive outcome from a cold call and less than a 1% positive outcome. According to Clearbit from a cold email right now, that's not even getting a meeting, that's just getting a response, right? So I don't know about you. I don't like those odds. So I'd like to think, I think about like, what can I do to stack the odds in my favor a little bit? Well, one of those things that you can do is personalization. And instead of doing all of this weird custom shit for the person, what if I get like 80% of the way there and do all of this other stuff, and then I'll save the really special personalization for the people that are going to need it. Because like, think about the chief revenue officer at a fortune 500 company is getting hundreds of cold emails every week. The VP of sales at a startup with 15 people is maybe getting a couple of dozen cold emails. I don't have to do as much to get this person's attention. Think about what you'd have to do to get the attention of the president of the United States versus your local mayor. That's sort of how I think about it.  
Speaker 1    00:22:44    I love how you bucketed that. So the table-stakes the merge tags, first name, you know, company name, second lever is industry. What are the industry numbers where industry metrics triggers, whatever you might want to call it. That's the second level. And then third level is company was to your point, there's a thousand different triggers thousand different data points. If you will, that you could potentially leverage across the board, but I love how you approached it. When you said, Hey, what's the minimum. What's the minimum, not how personalized can I get, but what's the minimum I can get away with and still be. I increased my 1% to 3%, 4%. And I'm triple the average of what's actually going on in stacking the odds more in my favor, if you will.  
Speaker 2    00:23:24    Yeah. The thing that I want the person to know is that this email is for them, right? And that's, if they're a priority, like I think that's another thing to think about too, is the other big challenge right now is how we manage our time. So if you think about, let's say you work 40 hours a week, you have eight when our buckets Monday through Friday to get stuff done. I want to think about how can I, the time that I do spend prospecting prospecting. So if I'm going to pick up the phone and call people, I want to call people that are going to be worth that effort. If I do get them on that's the gear VPs and C-levels yep. It's okay to just run a fully automated email sequence to entry-level people that you want to get a meeting with, just to get more information from them to bring up to a decision maker.  
Speaker 2    00:24:08    That's totally okay. Because you know what, it doesn't take as much to get their attention. It doesn't take as much to make them feel special. Yeah. So I think you have to really think about how do I optimize the hours of my week during the time that I do spend doing outbound, because I can't be everything for everyone and just, it's not going to work that way. Yep. You only have so much time and energy to dedicate towards outbound. Especially if you're doing full cycle sales, you maybe have an hour a day to do it. So make that really, really good stuff that you're doing and try to get the most out of it that you can, with the least amount of effort, it's the 80 20 rule apply the 80 20 rule to what you're doing. Okay.  
Speaker 1    00:24:45    Because I think this dovetails pretty nicely into the next point that, you know, was that me centric to use centric. And this seems to be talking more about, I know you don't need to be talking more about your product, your features or functionality. It's more about the prospect. Are you talking? But walk me through that a little bit, give some clarity around that because I think that's a really valid point and I love the shift that you're talking about here.  
Speaker 2    00:25:07    Yeah. And by the way, for those of you listening, we're walking through a framework right now let's identify, engage, create. So identify, we talked about the way we identify good fit opportunities is we've got to think not mass blast, but quality first. So the engaged part, how we decide to start a conversation, we got to move from me-centric to use centric. So a lot of salespeople see are guilty of what I call prospecting narcissism. So prospecting narcissism is a play of conversational narcissism, which is essentially the tendency to,  
Speaker 1    00:25:36    Is that part of the outbound fuckery you were talking about earlier?  
Speaker 2    00:25:39    Yeah. So a lot of it, a lot of it sounds like this, you know, let's I play guitar. So let's say we hop on a call and I'm like, oh yeah, I'm really excited about this new guitar I got. And then Sam immediately was like, oh, I play guitar too. In fact, I've been taking lessons and you just go on and on about how you've been playing guitar. That's a shift response is what that's called. You're shifting the conversation towards what you're interested in talking about a support response is when I lean in and I say, oh, Jason, how long have you been playing guitar? Oh, awesome. Do you, have you ever played in an abandoned for what? Who's your favorite guitarists? It's shifting the focus away from you and onto them. So prospecting narcissism, what we want to avoid is talking about our stuff.  
Speaker 2    00:26:22    Prospects really do not give a shit about your product or service. And I don't want to beat a dead horse with that cause so that's the advice that so many people give. And I think that the, what happens is there's an insecurity of, well, if I don't talk about what I do, how is this person going to know how I can help them? Right. But the really interesting part though, is that when you can shift the conversation to what the other person cares about, that's actually how you get people to talk about themselves. So I'll give you an example in a cold call. So we call it a priority drop. Okay? So in a cold call, the way that I recommend structuring it, as you have an intro, that's your first 60 seconds. You've got a hook that's where there'll be some dialogue back and forth and you have a close that's securing the meeting.  
Speaker 2    00:26:59    If it makes sense to me right now in the intro where people, they make two mistakes, really one is in the first 30 seconds, they get shut down and it has to do with lack of confidence. And also not during what I call it, permission based opener. And it's essentially allowing the prospect to opt in, Hey, Sam, Jameson with blissful prospecting. Look, I know you probably weren't expecting this call, but you got a minute for me to tell you why I'm calling. And then you could let me know if want to keep chatting. Nine times out of 10 prospect will say, yes, we've got to nail that part. I got to be friendly. I got to be assertive. I got to talk slowly. I got an NC at my words, and I have to sound like a peer right now from there. When the prospect says yes, where most people make a mistake is they do elevator pitch.  
Speaker 2    00:27:39    Well, great, Sam, I'm really glad I got ahold of you. If we're working with chief revenue officers right now to help them boost their prospecting, especially into 2020. Notice, you guys have an SDR team would love to set up a meeting with you to talk about our training options. What's your calendar look like later this week, right? That's what most people do. So they immediately shift the focus onto what they do and to get the other person interested in what they do. Yep. I want to do the opposite. So the priority drop is again, I'm thinking about how can I get this person talking about themselves, those priority part of the foot is that where it flips it interest interest still. So what we're doing with this priority drop is before we get to the hook, I want to filter the conversation. So I know where to focus.  
Speaker 2    00:28:19    Gotcha. Okay. So maybe that welding example. So this is a style of priority drop that you can do. I call it word on the street. So if you talk about stuff, like think about it. If, if we were neighbors and I went over and I saw you outside or whatever, you're like, Hey, did you hear that? You know, so-and-so got kicked out of the unit next door, that's word on the street. I'm talking about something that we both have in common. Right? So with the welding company, that's the shortage of labor right now, welder specifically. So that's going to be one of the priority job statements. The other one is going to be like having trouble automating. So it sounds something like this, Hey, Sam will appreciate it. So you gave me the 30 seconds. I say, Hey, I've been talking to a lot of VPs of manufacturing and I'm hearing a focus around one of two things right now.  
Speaker 2    00:29:01    Number one is labor shortage of welders. So I noticed that you guys are hiring three welders right now. And the whole challenge the industry is having is that there are fewer welders than there are supply right now. So in other words, there's just fewer of these people entering the job market and you're figuring out how can I keep up my production targets and maintain everything that we're doing with our welders. The second thing that I'm hearing is really around struggles. Automating. I noticed that you guys are, you know, manufacturing trailers right now. And typically what we hear is that about half of the, of the trailer fits into this high custom, low volume manufacturing product mix. And it's just really hard to automate. I'm really curious for you, which one of those two things is a bigger focus for you right now. And I'm giving them multiple choice options that allow me to filter the hook.  
Speaker 2    00:29:45    So now I've engaged you by talking about you and people love talking about themselves. Again, I'm thinking about in my personal life, how do I get someone to talk about themselves while I talk about what they're interested in, the cool part about this is that you already kind of know what they should be interested in, right? And then now they might say one or two, and then I'm going to do that hook. I'm going to ask questions around those things. I'm going to come in with two or three questions around typical problems. I'm going to ask how they're dealing with them. And then I get them talking about that. And sometimes what people will do is like, wait, wait, so who are you guys again? What do you do? Right. Oh, great question. I'm with ABC company and you know, those problems, you mentioned that you're having, we actually working with manufacturing companies like X, Y, and Z to help them overcome that. And I know I'm catching in the middle of something here. How about we unpack this one? I'm not calling you in the middle of your day. You want to pull out your candor calendar for me real quick, what you got going on tomorrow. You know? So like I can shift the conversation away from talking about myself, by talking about how we help people like you and what people that we help are into, in the problems that they have. It's just a complete one, 80 from how most people approach it.  
Speaker 1    00:30:48    You know what I love about that? Jason's the fact that, Hey, it was about me and understanding where perhaps are the priorities. That probably should be my police top of mind, for me engaging me in that way. And through, through the course of doing that, it was a natural conversation. Once again, keeping it human in an organic conversation. Hey, well, what do you guys do? Help me understand the connection. You're like, well, this is actually now there was an interest level. There was a buy-in to some degree that, Hey, I'm someone interested in understanding more about what you do. Let's have that dialogue and to your point, and maybe we should unpack this at a later time. That's a very human conversation. I don't know if that's the right terminology. That feels a lot more human than the typical cold call that most people are doing. Or at least the cold calls and honor saving.  
Speaker 2    00:31:32    Yeah. I mean, think about it like this. If you went to trader Joe's and you wanted to go talk to a stranger on the aisle, you wouldn't just go up to them and be like, Hey, my name's Jason. I've been looking for like spaghetti. And like, I'm going to make some spaghetti this, this weekend for dinner and I'm looking for the best sauce. And he wouldn't do that. If you wanted to talk to him and be like, oh, Hey, I noticed you're looking at Trinity, are you making pasta later? You know, you would do that. And naturally in a conversation. And for some reason, when we cold call people or we prospect, we don't think about the fact that we're just two people communicating. You know, what's really irritating is talking to a stranger that like talks about themselves the entire time you can't get out of the conversation.  
Speaker 2    00:32:09    Yeah. Most people say that prospects are like, you gotta deal with them being scared of talking to strangers. I don't think they have a problem talking to strangers. I don't think they're scared of that. I think they're scared of getting on the phone with someone that they're too afraid to hang up on because most people are not assholes. They don't want to reject you. Yep. So don't put them in a position where you're not giving them one, a way to opt in through that intro and then to talking about them, to see if it's even relevant, like give them that opportunity to opt into the call.  
Speaker 1    00:32:34    But you know what? I want to loop back to you because this is an important, all started with the right. Like you said, like, you know, at the very top of the call is it's the right market. You're, you're talking to the right people. You've identified target market and then you've gotten more granular and more niche. So you're not over-complicating and trying to read and react on the fly. I think that's the big, common thing that challenges most cold callers, they're pivoting 180 different directions calling on everybody and their brother and then getting thrown from a loop in real time. I mean, no one can do that. What you've done and say, listen, let's take this, let's boil down the ocean. Instead of trying to call 100,000 people, let's get it to a hundred, let's get it to 50, but they're the right 50, they're the right person to talk to with the right common problems, you know, that they're going to have, so it does become a natural conversation. Right? I think I go back to that original point. Would you set around the target market and getting to the right people in the right organization? Yeah.  
Speaker 2    00:33:26    Yeah. You know, think of it. If you're doing spring cleaning, we were just doing kind of a minimalization, you know, kind of exercise where I just get rid of that. Imagine if I was in my office here, put away a couple of things and then I go to the kitchen and then it go outside into the closet. And then I go into the it's like, no, you would like systematically work your way through the house. Right. Why wouldn't you do that? Same thing, like your data, just because you can't see it. And it's like invisible in the cloud doesn't mean you shouldn't be systematically work through it and just no different than a factory would. It's like automated, that's building cars and it's building them in sections, like do the same exact thing. Yeah.  
Speaker 1    00:34:01    So talk to me about the last one. Cause I actually think this and how you put it change from always be closing to teach. Don't take right. Add value in why you're asking for what walk me through it. Cause I think I understand kind of the, the thought process. I want to make sure I want to get your thoughts on it.  
Speaker 2    00:34:18    Yeah. Let's talk about value because I think that there's this thing where that's a typical thing, a sales trainer would say, Sam, you've got to add value and you're like, yeah, sounds really good. But how do I do that? You know, like what is value, right?  
Speaker 1    00:34:31    Yeah. I used to have the train used to always say, cut it in half and double the value. And I'm like,  
Speaker 2    00:34:35    How do you do that? It sounds really cool. It sounds super cool. I wish I knew how to do that. I think value is really sort of simple in a way, but what you need to think about is if you're asking for 30 minutes of this person's time, what is going to make that time worth it? Okay. So let's think about an executive here. Let's say you want to get ahold of someone that makes $500,000 a year. So if they work approximately 40 hours a week, you know, 50 weeks out of the year, they take help leaves for vacation. Their time's worth about 250 bucks an hour. Right? So what I need to think about is if I'm asking them for 30 minutes of their time, would that be worth $125 to them? Would they get something from that or at least interacting with you through the sales process? That's how I think about, yeah. So value is very different for a skip Miller would have put called selling above and below the line. The  
Speaker 2    00:35:24    Whole concept, ATL BTL VPs, C-levels typically think very strategically, very long forward thinking very results-based below the line, your managers, users of product, et cetera. They're thinking day to day. How do I fix this pain? My life right now? Right? So the value is going to be very different depending on who you talk with it. Executives values typically in insights. So if I'm talking to a VP of sales, you know, what they love hearing from me is how I'm helping other SAS companies like theirs, get more meetings faster and win business from their competition. That if I can share two or three things that we're doing, that's going to make that. Person's like, okay, cool. I have something that I can share with someone. And it's going to make me a lot more than 125 bucks. Cause my team's going to sell a shit ton more.  
Speaker 2    00:36:04    We're going to get a lot more meetings now, users of products below the line. It's how can you help me with something that's painful right now? So, Hey, I'd love to share with you. I noticed that you're in charge of hiring welders. I'd love to share with you what companies are doing right now to make sure they attract the best welding talent and also what they're doing to not have to rely on them so much, right? So that your job can be a little easier. So how about we impact that a little bit more when you know, I'm not cold calling yada out of the blue here, that's all value is that's all it is. I, there needs to be a promise. And if you're listening to this and you've run an SDR team, a BDR team, or you are an SDR BDR, this is where you talk to the account executives and you look at their slide deck and you really are looking at like, what kind of like insights do you share that are helpful for them?  
Speaker 2    00:36:48    Even if they decide not to use our product or service, what did they learn? Yeah. That's what you want to talk about. That's also the best way to handle objections. Cause that's the last kind of part of the framework, identify, engage, create. Typically in order to create opportunities. After we start conversations is we have to objection, handle the best way to objection handle is to get higher level than the objection. So I'll give you an example. I was working with a company that sells a CRM solution into higher ed. So I was doing a little bit of cold calling for them because I like to, to keep the knife sharp. And I was calling this guy, who's like a Dean of the school and all this other stuff. And he's like, dude, we already got a CRM. And I was like, Hey, I hear you.  
Speaker 2    00:37:25    I figured that you would have a CRM, but that actually wasn't the reaching out to you. He's like, oh, what do you mean? Well, the reason I was reaching out is that one thing we're seeing a lot right now with schools is that the typical student, they used to only apply to three or four schools five years ago. What we're seeing right now is them applied to 10, 12 universities at a time. And the biggest thing, the biggest decider between schools for them is oftentimes the experience with the admissions team. And I'd love to share with you how other schools, like a, B and C are changing their admissions process to be more friendly for the potential students so that you don't lose any students to competing universities in Oregon. So like I said, I love to share that with you. I promise it'll be worth your time.  
Speaker 2    00:38:07    What's your calendar look like next week on Friday? Like I can get higher level with the insight and not have to be like, so what don't you like about that solution? What do you like? And it is just really weird to have that conversation. Most people are not going to have that with you on a cold call. These are now in the sales process, very different, right? I'm going to want to dig into that when I'm selling sure. Without a doubt, but we'll call, I don't need to dig into all that stuff. That's not going to be why someone takes the meeting, right? He'd be like, what am I going to learn? Even if I decide not to switch pools.  
Speaker 1    00:38:35    It's funny as you, as we're talking through this and thinking through the cold calls that I've accepted and have gone into a meeting, the best cold calls I've ever had is where they've understood the pain points that I'm probably having as a sales leader. Right. They were able to articulate that very clearly, very succinctly, Hey, and then I love the fact when there's been one or two of them all named their names where they've literally said, Hey, and if nothing else, what I'm also going to share with you is how X, Y, and Z company was actually able to actually drive an additional 20, 30 meetings a month. And it was a company that was right in my wheelhouse. Like it was somebody that kind of as a competitor, but they're in our space. Like if they were doing it, we should, that's the same type of clientele. And I thought, hell for 30 minutes, if I learn what they're doing, it's valuable to me, regardless if I do business with you or not, at least I got some insights there. So that was like, just thinking through that whole dialogue, there was value that whether I decided to go with your company or not, you sharing how they're tackling that may give me my own insights, where I go down a different path. There's Lisa was valuable to me as a sales leader. So I love that.  
Speaker 2    00:39:36    And it's super simple. The thing I share oftentimes a lot is, you know, one of the things Sam, that I can talk to you a little bit more about is how people are working with a remote AEC team and getting them to set meetings through what I call, get shut down sessions. So they actually get their entire teams on a virtual zoom call. They put each other on mute and they make calls together for an hour and they set a lot of meetings. I can share more about that strategy and a few others. It's really simple, easy to put into action stuff. It's like, oh shit. I never thought of that. Yeah.  
Speaker 1    00:40:05    Yeah. So they it's called get shit done session.  
Speaker 2    00:40:08    Yeah. Get shit done. Let's not talk about outbound. Let's do outbound.  
Speaker 1    00:40:14    That is fantastic. So everybody just sits on a zoom everybody's new to, and everybody has essentially dialing and they're going through it. And then do people, like, what is the pinnacle of that? Do people hop on when they've got a meeting? What is the,  
Speaker 2    00:40:27    Oh, in the chat? You just do it in the chat man got a meeting. And then people are like, yeah, you know, it's the next closest thing to a virtual, to an actual Salesforce. It's a virtual Salesforce. That is very next best thing that you could do. Most of the teams I work with are distributed. There isn't an office that everyone congregates in.  
Speaker 1    00:40:42    Yeah. I remember my day and the old, I mean I'm 10,000 years old. We used to do call blitzes where you'd be on the phone for hours and ring the bell. Once you got something like that, it was in a boiler room. I don't remember. I don't, I don't really,  
Speaker 2    00:40:54    I've been there before.  
Speaker 1    00:40:56    That's fantastic. Hey, any final thoughts? I know you've got a hop, any final thoughts for the audience that you want to share, then we're going to kind of get into how they find you. You're all over LinkedIn. I know that, but I want to make sure any final thoughts that you had for the audience share.  
Speaker 2    00:41:10    Yeah. I think the big thing is that people try to really, over-complicate what we're doing with outbound and it's really not complicated if I have a really good system for identifying good fit opportunities. I got some tools at my disposal through phone, email, social to engage and start a conversation with. And I'm able to create opportunities out of it and, and do a little bit of projection and lips. That's all I need. Keep it super, super, super basic. I think that people try to spread themselves way too thin. So just do the bare minimum. I need an ideal client profile, some personas. I need to know what kind of messaging I need to send them. I need emails. I need to talk track sequencing, tool, something like that. And I just need to build, to handle like the most common three to five objections. So seven things, that's all I need. And then systematically work through all of your personas to build that. And that's all that's needed. You don't need to over-complicate it with all the Bombora's of the world and the intent that you really don't need that get started with the basics first. And that's going to allow you to get from pretty good to a professional like intent data is not going to fix your shitty cold call. Like do you have to get good at the soft skills of the job in order for the, the tools to, to help you do better?  
Speaker 1    00:42:19    I think some people will leverage. They use utilize technology as a crutch, right? Hey, well, if I had that, it would help me. Right. But it doesn't make a bad salesperson, a good salesperson. If you don't have the right top track from the skillset that that's not going to help. So I think that's great feedback. How do people engage with you learn more about blissful prospecting you as an individual. What's the best way of getting hold of yet?  
Speaker 2    00:42:41    Uh, blissful, So just a couple of things you're going to find there. If you're just like, Hey, I want freestyle right now. And you're like on a budget. That's all good. There's tons of that. There. Uh, we got a podcast with episodes every week. I only talk about tons of guides on there. I post daily content on LinkedIn, all of that's accessible from the website. And if you're like, Hey, you know, I might want some help applying some of this stuff. I get two ways. One is outbound squad. So if you're an individual rep looking for a community, a bad-ass is you want coaching from me? And like the same course content that I use with, you know, companies like zoom, Medallia, that sort of thing. That's an option for you. And then I also work with companies too. So if you're a sales leader and you're like, Hey, I'd like my team to do outbound like this. And you want some really good hands on PR and want to work with me privately, all of that successful through the website. Just reach out to me. Thanks  
Speaker 1    00:43:27    Tasks. And we're going to add all that to the show notes. So you're able to get ahold of Jason, Jason, I sincerely appreciate the time. And I know we had a bunch of technical difficulties, but we forged through and I think we had a great conversation. So thanks for coming on the show.  
Speaker 2    00:43:40    Yeah. You bet. Thanks for having me. It was great to talk to you, man. Awesome.  
Speaker 0    00:43:45    Thank you for listening to the sales samurai podcast with your host, Sam Capra, be sure you subscribe to our podcast and visit sales and join the conversation. Access show notes and discover bonus content.  

Jason Bay Profile Photo

Jason Bay

Chief Prospecting Officer

Jason Bay is Chief Prospecting Officer at Blissful Prospecting. He’s on a mission to help reps and sales teams turn complete strangers into paying customers. A few of his clients have included reps and sales teams from companies like Zoom, CBRE, Medallia, Xfinity, Commvault, and many more. Sales is the only "adult job" he’s ever had. And he’s done everything from selling house painting services door to door, running outbound call centers, to helping thousands of reps master cold outreach.