In today’s episode of the ‘Sales Samurai’ podcast, host Sam Capra, who helps marketing leaders in the retail space go beyond the sale/transaction, talks with guest Shawn Sease, founder of 5bynoon. Shawn shares three things that have no place in cold calling. He also talks about the fundamentals of his scripts and variations to your outbound call strategy.
Three Key Points
Speaker 0 00:00:01 Coming to you from Orlando, Florida, Orlando, Florida, and streaming around the world around the world. You're now tuned in to the sales samurai podcast. The only B2B sales podcast, providing unfiltered unapologetic views and tactics directly from the sales trenches. Here's your host, Sam Capra.
Speaker 1 00:00:29 Welcome to another episode of the sales samurai. Thanks for listening. Before we begin, do us a favor, take a moment to subscribe and download on today's show. We're going to be discussing three things. Have no place in cold calling. And I have an awesome guest for you guys today. Sean seas, founder of five by noon is with us today. Sean, welcome to the show. Thank
Speaker 2 00:00:50 You very much, Sam. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 00:00:53 It is an absolute pleasure. Hey you're I know you're all over LinkedIn and that's how I came across your profile. We engaged offline to get onto the podcast, but can you tell the listeners a little bit about yourself, kind of your journey in sales. I was going through your LinkedIn profile. You don't have the quintessential like sales background, just kind of looking at your background. Can you give the listeners a little bit about kind of what you've been, what you've been up to, what, how you kinda got into the sales space in general?
Speaker 2 00:01:19 Yeah, you bet. I've actually, I've spent it probably about the last 30 years of my life in sales, but as far as LinkedIn goes, I took in crammed all my jobs into one into one. So it doesn't look like I have this huge backlog there. It is all the way back to literally, or being a youngster or selling raffle tickets or chocolate bars.
Speaker 1 00:01:40 I put that on my profile. Wasn't supposed to put the little,
Speaker 2 00:01:42 Yeah, right? Yeah. Or, uh, having a paper route, tried to work for them, tip who worked for those tips. And uh, you know, I grew up in my dad's auto shop, always interfacing with people from customer service and things like that. So when I started out really a young 16 to 17 year old, 17 years old in high school, I got a job at a, a local high-tech company in Campbell, California, right by San Jose. So I've been in high-tech and sales, uh, my whole entire life. But Ben should around a little bit. I was in the Marine Corps earlier in my life. Did that also went hobby, gone crazy, built a brewery one time for a few years and did that. So I've messed around a little bit, but my heart soul is always been in high-tech sales. That's what I know how to do. That's what I'm good at. And I've landed on five by noon, pretty much taking the best of all things, outbound cold calling, which starts with knowing who you serve and how you serve them and really nailing a niche. So I take that nail a niche thing to heart with the work I do. I focus 100% on top of funnel, outbound cold calling.
Speaker 1 00:02:44 That's fantastic, man. Hey, so I'm always interested, like, and I know I've had this conversation on many, a podcasts. I know you kind of gave me a lay of the land that you started a technology company out there in California, but what got your motor running as far as sales, like where you find so PA obviously you're passionate about it. I could tell from the conversation already, what kind of drives you from a sales perspective? What what's kind of that, that the passion plug, if you will,
Speaker 2 00:03:09 I think it has a lot to do with finally realizing that I'm pretty much a people person. I like people, I like happy people. I like solving problems can usually find the good in something super resilient. And I don't know, it's just, uh, I've realized that about myself. And so I said, okay, this ought to work. Pretty good. You know, I don't mind being wrong. I'll say what I am wrong when I am wrong. It's usually pretty epic failure. So we got to, we got to pick it back up and start over and get going again. So that's just about resiliency. That's great.
Speaker 1 00:03:42 Yeah. Fail fast, fail often. Right? As long as you're failing fast and failing often you're doing the right things. You got to fail in order to succeed at some point. That's why I love that.
Speaker 2 00:03:51 I know we find ourselves saying that all the time, you know, when people call us up and say, Hey, how many meetings can you guarantee as, Hey, what's the conversion rate? I don't know. What's we're going to find, I don't know if I knew that we probably wouldn't be talking, I'd be doing something else. But the answer is always, we're going to find out, let's test it. Let's test it. Let's test it. Let's say,
Speaker 1 00:04:12 And I want to go to a, down a rabbit hole, but sales is a unique beast. I mean, as you talk about it and coding all these different, uh, you know, vocations, if you will, sales is the one thing that's not necessarily linear. There's no one thing that you can do to get to drive the same result. Right? Everything is very unique to the people, how you're engaging with those people. And it's hard, I would assume in your sector and what you guys do because the number one KPI I'm assuming is how many meetings can you drive? And it's like, Hey, if it was easy, everyone would do it. And let's just get in there and actually test and reiterate and change and evolve as we go. Right? Sean?
Speaker 2 00:04:47 Yeah. There's always a debate raging on about process and people. And I'm actually, like I said, I'm actually kind of a people person. I, I wholeheartedly believe in process. You've got to have a process, but I think that anyone who's been in leadership roles long enough or has done enough hiring or recruiting and trying to build teams or so on, you can create a process and then you really have to go in and find talent to fit in that process. And what's interesting is that no two people are alike. And what I mean by that is whenever I've been a part of teams where the sales reps are just sensational, they're super talented. One, none of them are not. One of them is like the other one. They're all completely different. They'll follow the process to some point, but they it's their personality that deviates around and they know they'll actually make things happen.
Speaker 2 00:05:37 And then the third piece is they can, you know, you have a talented rep when they're doing really well and they can explain for the life of them, how they do it without a doubt, they can't tell you, they just somehow naturally can do it. So you're looking for those kinds of people. And then it's really leadership's job. You know, sales leaders, CEOs, founders to create the conditions for those kinds of people to succeed. And I think that that's sometimes where process goes wrong, where it gets too rigid. And you forget about the talent piece. The process has to have a little wiggle room in it. So talent can come in and really add that extra little piece. It needs to, you know, go to the moon,
Speaker 1 00:06:18 Right? Without a doubt, I, 100% agree with you. You can put the process in place and you can follow it to a T and one person obviously adding their own element of personality to your point. They can't really articulate why they're being so successful. They're following a process. I kind of consider it science and art, right? Science is the process. Art is what you bring to it. And that's, that's a differentiator in my book. You can have a great process, but if you can't artfully do it, you're probably not going to be the cream of the crop. You might build in the middle of the pack or somewhere along those lines. But I think you hit the nail on the head, how I want to dive into this. Cause there was a post that really kind of drove me to reaching out because I really wanted to have a conversation around this. You made a post recently around, Hey, there's following. There's three things that really have no place in cold calling it. I think I want to get your clarification on this is that I know when we say cold calling, I know cold calling kind of buckets, everything, right. Everybody says I cold email. Then there's cold phone prospecting. We're really relating this in, please. Correct me if I'm wrong, Sean, that this is really specific to the phone. Right? And what has no place on outbound cold calling as it relates to the phone? Correct?
Speaker 2 00:07:26 Yes. And I would say ice cold calling the idea that the people you're calling are on some lists that someone created the set, that these would be what we believe would be good customers. We'd like to have a conversation with them, but they probably don't know anything about us. Give them a call and see if you can get us a meeting.
Speaker 1 00:07:42 Yeah. They're like frozen. There's no color they can be. So we're going to talk about the three things that you mentioned, which I thought were actually actually really insightful. They're simplistic, but they're really insightful. I want to get your thoughts on it. And I actually want to get two additionals for the audience. And actually the two things that you think are just absolutely fundamental because I think you would agree, Sean, there's a lot of people on LinkedIn that are so-called gurus and they're spouting all these different things about what you should do and what you shouldn't do. And it can be a little bit asleep. I want to get your thoughts on what are the fundamentals that you think you fundamentally have to do to be successful when it comes to cold calling from a phone standpoint. So I want to do that as well, but let's jump in here. You put the following three things have no place top of the funnel, cold calling, leading with product value. And I want to get your thoughts on that. What do you mean was a leading with product value? Give me some, help me understand that a bit.
Speaker 2 00:08:34 Okay. Leading with product value. Now let's just back it up for one second here. And where are these? The, the three different things that we're going to talk about here. This has a lot to do with expectation setting. You know what? You can actually pull off in a first-time call and usually the expectations are out of line. And what happens is people will end up leading with product value when they're charged with when their expectation of requirement is to find deals, go out there and find opportunities and deals. We make a call, find the decision maker, uncover the pain and put a deal in the pipeline. That's not realistically how top of funnel outbound prospecting works. That engagement comes down the road after a meeting is set and so on. So when you go into people, end up bleeding with value their product, what it does, the problems it solves when they have been charged by their leadership with finding deals for AEs.
Speaker 2 00:09:29 And then my question always is, well, what the heck are the AEs doing? Right? You know, like they're order takers. So when you set expectations, that way that leadership has come along and said, look, we've created a list of people that we believe would be good customers, but we need to have a conversation with them to find that out first, that's the age job to have that conversation and figure out if there's a deal or pain or whatever, right? You Mr. S3, Mr. And Mrs. SDR, your job is to get a, a meeting with the person on this list. Your job is not to qualify nothing. We've done all that hard work for you. That's on us. Now, when that's the expectation to get the meeting, now we can have actually have a conversation. One-on-one like, if you're my prospect, Sam, I can call you and I can have a script.
Speaker 2 00:10:13 That's set up to get a meeting because I'm going to address you as contacting you into paraphrase, to help you become a better version of yourself or learn something that you don't know about or help you gain something that will help you assess your current situation as a way to entice you to want to take a meeting, as opposed to my company and your company being better off, I'm calling you so that you and I can end up better off than where we started in this conversation. That is you're committing to taking a meeting with my team, and I'm going to put you together with somebody who's going to help you learn something that will help you do your job better help you become a better version of yourself or at the very minimum help you assess your current situation and maybe take away some things that you could use right away.
Speaker 2 00:10:58 Ultimately, if we decide or you decide to not pursue it any further than the next meeting, I guarantee you're going to walk away with some insights that you could probably use right away, help you assess your current situation and will remain a valuable resource for you in the future. So that, so we're not talking about the product. We're not talking about anything. We're talking about you. I know you got a job to do. These guys said, you look like a good customer. That's all fine and dandy. My job is to get you into a meeting. The best way we've figured out to do that is to help people become the next best version of themselves, or at least, you know, fundamentally ended up better off than where they started. And people will take a meeting for that. You know what sounds good. I'll go ahead. I'll give you 15, 20 minutes. That sounds great. Next week, Thursday three. O'clock perfect. Again, no value, no product, no nothing. Just you becoming a better version of yourself.
Speaker 1 00:11:45 So Sean, what is it? So and correct me here. So when I think of cold calling and what I think you're saying here, when I think of just kind of walking through then kind of hand holding down that path a bit is the typical cold. Call that up as a VP of sales, I get a lot of cold calls. The typical call call I get is, Hey, I'm Sam, we're X, Y, and Z company. We're the leading industry in sales analytics. And we could drive a 345% increase in ROI for you and your sales reps. Do you have 15, 20 minutes on Tuesday at two o'clock? And what you're saying is you're leading with product. Like there's nothing in that for me or my off-base there, Sean and I going to give you a real hypothesis.
Speaker 2 00:12:22 No, I, I think that, I believe that's a really good example because I went, you lost me when you were saying it, you know what I mean? Like you go deaf right in the same, thing's happening on the other side. And I think what you're actually doing is you're probably triggering or eliciting a response. That's hitting somebody in a, they're having a negative visceral reaction to that because it's, don't call me and tell me that I'm not getting the numbers that I need out of my job. You know, who are you? Is this a sales call? What was that? Right? It they'll say, Hey, write this down for me real quick Sandler training or something like that. But yeah, that's right. When you head straight into it, that way you just, you lose somebody. And I think that what we do in our cool calling and messaging workshops is we cover the, you know, what to say, how to say it.
Speaker 2 00:13:06 And most importantly, why we're saying it, and again, we never ever talk about the product. That's always an accessory, you know, to the actual script, which is how do we actually call somebody up and start a two-way dialogue with someone where we actually have a rhythm of a conversation going where I'm saying something, and maybe you're answering a question or replying back and that's going back and forth so that the questions can get longer and so on. And now you're just comfortably back and forth. And the person, the prospect isn't even really considering that they're in a cold call or it hasn't dawned on them that they're in a sales call or so on. This is what's underneath the way that we train and go about this kind of this first principles idea that, Hey, if I'm going to call somebody, what would be the very best things that could happen for me?
Speaker 2 00:13:54 Well, one, it would be great if I had a list of people who answered the phone, that would be great. We start there and only call those people. So that's a data issue. That's, uh, that's one of the one or two things we'll talk about later. That's an absolute must. The Wister is your strategy. Then the second piece would be, if I'm going to call these people, what would be the very best thing for it to happen on the call? The very best thing to happen would be that we are in a genuine dialogue that we're actually talking to each other and we have each other's attention. And I think what's so powerful about that is that within the first seven to 12 seconds, you can actually create that in a way that covers, you know, a lot of the things that you're trying to do, like is now a really good time to talk or not, and be mindful of that as opposed to needing to rifle out or machine gun out my value prop real quick.
Speaker 2 00:14:43 You know, when you call up somebody and say, Hey, it's Sean from five by noon and say, Sam, you're not expecting my call at all. In fact, this is the first time I've tried to reach it. You mind, I'll take half a minute here and I'll share with you what I'm up to. And just an opening is that simple. A lot of people have different versions of it, but it was just a simple way to diffuse everything. I rarely does anyone ever say, Hey, no, is this a cold call or whatever? But if they did, if they said, Hey, you know what? You really caught me at a bad time. And walking into a meeting, this goes into the second piece. I think what we're going to talk about, which is right exactly is that these are conditions. And again, my goal is to have a conversation with people.
Speaker 2 00:15:21 So if somebody tells me, Hey, I'm walking into a meeting right now, or I'm on another call or whatever. Oh, no worries. Did I have a knack for interrupting people at the wrong time? Sam, would it make sense if I called you back at two o'clock this afternoon or tomorrow at 10:00 AM? Yeah. Try me back again again. And we're going to do the training around this with people to teach them that, Hey, now when you call Sam back at two o'clock today, you say, Sam is Sean over five by noon. I caught you earlier today, around 10, you were walking into a meeting. I don't think I could have caught you at a worst time. You said it made sense to call you back right now. Uh, do you have half a minute? And I'll pick up where we left off, you know, and again, my goal is a two-way conversation, not my value prop, not anything, because I haven't even started the conversation yet.
Speaker 2 00:16:04 And I think that those are always things that skipped over. You hear it and you see it on live calls and so on. When somebody says, Hey, I'm Jay, I'm in a meeting right now. And people train and they train the reps to say, they're lying. Don't believe them and say, you know, if I only, if, if you just give me half a minute, all I'm sure it will be a value to you. Our experiences is that when we take people at their word, we've now we're now using the law of familiarity. And again, our personality and so on to take the next step with someone, Hey Sam, I couldn't have called you at a worst time. The other day. You couldn't talk to you. As a matter of fact, I think you were in such a hurry. You almost had to hang up on me.
Speaker 2 00:16:40 You told me it made sense to give you a call back today. Did I catch you at a better time? Right? And again, that creates a situation where, you know, in the back of someone's mind, they're thinking, well, I'm not a jerk. I, you know, I don't want people to think. I mean, well, Hey, what, what, what's up? What's on your mind, Sean, what do you got? What are you working on? Now? We're back to the two way dialogue, which is the goal of opening up the call. Because if you don't have that, you're not going to be able to move forward.
Speaker 1 00:17:02 Oh, I love about that. It's really the law of reciprocity, right? I mean, it's, Hey, I caught you at a bad time. Probably couldn't have caught you at any worst time. You almost hung up on me. You told me to give you a call back and it's almost like to your point, you said, listen, I don't want to be a jerk about it. Yes, I did tell him to call me back. Yes. I have a few minutes to have a conversation. There's a little bit of that. And what I really love about that, Sean is it's not confrontation, right? When we start getting into objection, handling, it becomes defensive, keep coming up, right. And to keep escalating things versus just having a natural, organic human. I think that's the key element I like to say is a human conversation with someone, Hey, taking them at face value and then following up accordingly. So I love that piece of it. Any other nuggets, because you do hear that you do see that quite a bit online trainings, you know, Hey, overcoming this objection. I have time. I'm not interested. Send me literature. How do you dictate? I mean, what is your recommendation around? Objection? You said it should never be a part of the cold call. How do you recommend if someone does kind of give you some of those objections, what is your typical recommendation across the board?
Speaker 2 00:18:04 Well, let's develop what's in front of that for a second real quick. Th the con that idea of arming a rep with a list of only the people who answer the phone again, just to summarize that means that you work with someone like us and ran your contacts through a process where you figured out who answered the phone. So as soon as you have lists of people who answered the phone and you see that your reps are having a conversation, every, you know, one to three dials, one to five dials, basically eight to 12 conversations an hour, you can actually start to do follow ups. The way that I mentioned, because what's waiting behind the call. You're currently having is someone else who's willing to pick up the phone. A lot of these bad practices, including tech, staffs, high-velocity dialers and so on. Come from the belief that only two to 4% of people answer the phone. So you have to dial a hundred people to have two conversations. If you're only having two to three conversations a day, it's probably pretty likely that you're going to be trained on objection, handling and try to squeeze whatever you can. Again, you're what are you trying to do? You're trying to optimize a process that never worked in the first place, right?
Speaker 1 00:19:10 It's a broken process
Speaker 2 00:19:11 To begin with. Yeah, it doesn't work and all the objection handling and so on in the world, can't help you. And the reason, so again, all of these things about just letting people off the hook, taking them at their word don't objection handles because there's another color behind you. If you're doing this top of funnel process as efficiently as possible. So the objection handling part of the script is more about preemptive objection handling. So when we write the script, we make it pretty generic. We start out as simple as possible. You know, that opening was, you're not expecting my call. It's the first time I tried to reach out. You mind if I tell you why he called? Sure. Well, Sam, the purpose for my call today, I'm telling you it is to get time on your calendar, to introduce myself and my company by notice it's the beginning of the year.
Speaker 2 00:19:55 You're probably busy this week, next week, but you know, you've got some time next Thursday at three o'clock and I'll get out of your hair. You got your calendar handy. That's the second sentence of our script. And we're expecting people to say, you haven't even told me what this is about. You know, like I know I'm not going to get my calendar out. And you know, I've done live calls like this on LinkedIn and you you'll. My response is always, you know what Sam, I would have, honestly, I would have fallen out of my chair. If you got your calendar out and booked a meeting with me, no, nobody hardly anyone ever does. And if you did, I wouldn't say that. You're probably not going to show anyways, but let me ask you real quick before we go any further, have you even heard of my company five by noon?
Speaker 2 00:20:29 I mean, are you familiar with this at all? Seeing this on a billboard, a blimp or anything? And the answer to that question for every single company in the world is going to be no, I haven't. Right? Right. So those are the three sentences, right? So if we go back to the fundamentals of my script of the rhythm of the conversation and starting a two way conversation, I asked for permission to talk. Yeah, what's up. Well, and I'm going to tell you the purpose of my call. It is to get time on your calendar. How about we do this now? And I'll get you out of your hair. People come back and say no. In the timing in there is such that the conversations going back and forth romantically. And then the next question is building familiarity. Have you heard of my company five by new or whatever it is, right?
Speaker 2 00:21:10 I mean, whatever the company name is, are you familiar with this at all? So you just on a boat, billboard, Tik, TOK, whatever. No, no I haven't. Right. So now we've established the rhythm of the conversation. Now we're into the middle of the thing. And you say, you know, I'll tell you one of the hardest things about the work that I do here. Sam is trying to get time on the calendar because most of the time, and this, this goes to whatever your role is. You know, everybody I talked to you already has something in place. Your calendar's full. It's hard to find time, but you know, what we've figured out is the best way to introduce ourselves and share some new ideas and innovations around, you know, XYZ is just, we're not going to see you at a trade show. Anytime soon is to call up, set up these meetings.
Speaker 2 00:21:48 We got them boiled down to 20 minutes so that you can learn, you know, XYZ. And again, that's it. I can share with you that if you decide to not pursue this any further than the next call, you're going to walk away with some really valuable insights. That'll help you assess, you know, your current situation. You'll probably learn a couple of things you could use right away. So what do you think how's next Thursday at three o'clock. And again, I am literally saying what I was saying earlier that I am calling to share with you some ideas that would probably help you just simply do your job better,
Speaker 1 00:22:16 Write a better version of yourself. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:22:19 And I'm going to try to keep it nebulous in there a little bit. So somebody might say, well, hold on. What do you mean by that? Like, I, you know, I'm going to try to make it. So I create curiosity. Then that way I can come back and say, you know, use phrases like, well, you know how when or so on, but let's back up a little bit to the objection, handling part part. The reason why I say there's no place for objection handling is that we find that it works a lot better to just let open up with the objections, like defuse the situation, especially around the meeting set part again, we're still not talking about the product or anything. Right. We're saying the artist's thing that I got to do when I call up, I like making these calls probably about as much as you like receiving them, Sam, most of the time I call it the wrong time. The timing's not right. You've got projects in the fire and so on. That's how we preempt these objections. We don't, we just, of course, it's a bad time. Of course, you're not interested. Of course you already have something. Of course, you already have a team, whatever. And just don't create a situation where someone's going to say, we already have that because they already do. They already do.
Speaker 1 00:23:19 You know what I love about that, Sean? And I know we're going to talk about this in a minute around the things that you have to have, but I like a preemptively kind of cover that is I equate it to start with the right information, the right data, know who you're calling, make sure they're the right. You have the right information. You have the right ICP, whatever the case might be to actually reach someone. Because to your point, you said, you get caught up in all of this objection, handling it's the law of diminishing returns. If you don't move on, you're actually losing more by getting into this type of routine of objection handling, which is being covered by everybody and their brother on LinkedIn, about what you should say at that time versus actually having a two-way dialogue. And then actually moving on to the next call, which you know, based on your data set is someone that's just as viable, if not more viable that can actually use your services as well.
Speaker 1 00:24:07 And that's what I kind of picked up through that conversation, along with a million other things that you said, but I just want to make sure I kind of got that right from the get go. It all starts with that data initially that, and then you're preemptively tackling the objections. Hey, I'm trying to get meeting on your calendar. Hey, what do you even do? I figured you'd say that no one just gives me a meeting. Let me kind of walk you through that piece of it. And like you said, I know you're busy. I know you got a million projects, but you're preemptively kind of doing that in the same vein as, Hey, but let's have it's happening in a natural conversation. Right. Sean, that's what it sounds like to me. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:24:41 And I think that that is WhatsApp. If you looked at it through the 1, 2, 3 perspective, you really it's fear to curiosity, to trust, right? Cause to trust the little bit of skin in the game trust would be sure. You know what? Yeah. I'll give you a time. And what's, what's interesting about crossing that curiosity and trust chasm is that is the quality of the call. You know, the quality of the rapport. Again, listening to calls after calls, after calls and listening to value-based calls or people talking about their product and so on, go down in flames. Yeah. There's so many times when, when we've heard people on the other end of the line saying, you know what, I'm going to give you a meeting because you're really good at what you do, which is really, I mean, it's probably not the kind of meetings that you really want, but it's still, it's a meeting and you've got the trust. And that's why I continue to go down this road of it's one-on-one it's me and the person on the end of the phone. Can we find a reason that we like each other well enough or get along enough to cough up 15 to 20 minutes just to learn something new because you waste more time than that doing. God knows what at work, you know, I come on, let's be serious. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:25:49 That makes sense to me the third one. And then we're going to jump into the critical piece, which I know we want to get into the empathy piece. Help me understand. I know you said, Hey, the fear then go into the trust. But like when we talk about empathy, kind of give me some context around, what does that mean when you say empathy, as far as the three things that really have no place in cold calling.
Speaker 2 00:26:08 So this is a tougher one. And I, I honestly used that for a little bit of shock value to stand out from the crowd. But the tough part for empathy for me is that I think it's become a buzzword. It's one of these things that it sounds good. I don't actually see it coming across in real life. I understand what empathy is. I get it. I totally get it. I use it my personal life with friends, family and so on. But at the toll that cold calling takes on people, you don't actually end up in situations where you could really be empathetic. I mean, I just, I can't wrap my mind around it and I can't bring myself to just jump on the bandwagon and say empathy and sales makes sense, especially at top of funnel calling because you don't really have the relationships establish you.
Speaker 2 00:26:55 Haven't created the kind of trust where somebody is actually sharing their secrets with you. That kind of trust is probably going to be established further down the funnel, maybe in the next call, if the AA is good enough. But the goal of the next call is that you've got time blocked out. So you're not in this interruptive mode where people are distracted and you, you legitimately need to be, I guess you could be empathetic about that, but that just doesn't make any sense to me. There's not really empathy, but aware of that, it's an interruptive call. The goal is to get time on the calendar so that you could actually relax a little bit and have a time to talk about whatever, let the conversation go, where it needs to go. And so on. And in that situation, if someone starts sharing their secrets with you, like, Hey, you, truth be told, you know, it's not good around here.
Speaker 2 00:27:40 Last I heard, you know, a bunch of us are gonna get fired and it's not going to be good. And I mean, maybe you want to be empathetic then I'm not sure you probably want to be more sympathetic. Because again, at that point, your goal is to get deals in the fire with customers who would be good customers. And to me, the best customers are the ones who are open to having real straight talk. And if you're being empathetic with somebody, you're probably not challenging them for what needs to be done. You're not pushing them to the challenge. You're, you're probably fostering worst behavior, even from a leadership perspective, right? Like, oh, I understand how you could feel or whatever. That's not that's that usually doesn't fly. You mean people need, usually need to have their behavior modified or something that they're not doing. And they know darn well, they're not doing it.
Speaker 2 00:28:27 And they might need a kick in the pants or, or a slap upside the back of the head. So that's what I have a real challenge with empathy because I don't see it playing out. I don't see it playing out emotionally and top of funnel calls. I don't see the connection. When I say fear to curiosity, it's the, it's the invisible stranger thing, crispy connect. The cell talks about it all the time that you, the color you're an invisible stranger. The person on the other end of the line is the invisible stranger. And I always think of it as like, if you're camping or something, you're sitting around a campfire in the dark. And the only thing you can see is the bright fire. And it's quiet in the background, but you hear a tweak snap in the background. You're like, what was that? And then if it's a person is you're camping.
Speaker 2 00:29:07 So when you're like, sorry about that, it's just me. I'm headed to the bathroom a little, a little bit lost. When somebody says out loud, it's just me. I'm a person I'm a little bit lost. You might say, well, where are you headed? Or come over to the fire, you know? So on you, you disarm that fear. But if somebody doesn't say something and they keep sneaking along, you're going to go, what is that? You know, is it a creature or what? And I think that that's what happens when, when we're cold calling people in. And here's actually the interesting part. We write the script that opens up with not addressing who we're calling. In other words, it's not, Hey Sam, this is Sean. This is Sean from five by noon. You're not expecting my call. So you didn't even know, right? I'm not going to say your name.
Speaker 2 00:29:47 And what happens is we actually write the scripts. We coach on the scripts. First call comes up. The rep says, Hey, this is Shawn at five by noon. Is this Sam? You know? And then Sam comes back and says, who's this? What do you want just right out of the gate? And the fear just boom, went straight up and it goes into is just a cold call. And it's funny because you can't stress enough. How important that first step out of the gate is that last launch out of the gate, you know, it's like a failure to launch like a child, like, Hey, do me a favor. And the next call, the subsequent calls, follow the script. We coached on this. It's written like this for a reason. We're trying to disarm fear out of the gate. So in the scripts that we write, we don't even deal with the fear part because we've mastered it. Hey, shot at five by noon. And guess what? You are not expecting this call at all. Uh it's because it's the first time I tried to reach a, you might know, take a half a minute and I'll share with you what I'm up to today. Like, yeah, what's up, man. I like that. As opposed to, Hey, this is shot at five by noon. Is this, is this Sam Capra. Maybe who's asking who wants to know
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Speaker 1 00:31:32 It's funny. And I want to get into the big piece that I think you hit the nail on the head. I want to make sure we spend some time on it, but it's funny. The nuances of cold prospect, it's the subtleties. It's what you don't say what you should say, how you articulated the tone, the tenant, all the stuff that goes into it. But like you said, right to disarm right out of the gate, keep it casual, keep it as a two-way communication versus automatically making it confrontational right out of the gates and making it sound salesy. I mean, I can tell you Sean, that my defenses go up and I'm in the profession. I love the profession. But as soon as I get those calls, I can always tell what's coming. Right. Hey, Sam is the same Capra. Yes, it is. Hey what's this is what we do like, and they just go on.
Speaker 1 00:32:19 I mean, it just, I mean, it's a straight barrage for about 10, 15 seconds before they say, Hey, can I get 15 minutes? It's a challenge. Right? So it's refreshing to kind of see a different approach or along that line. But I want to get your thoughts on this because I think you hit the nail on the head around the feedback. Like, so what are the recommended? Cause you said it's all around the data. The data is the most critical piece, getting the right information, calling the right people. Can you share a little bit more about that? Sean said, you're right. We did put the, kind of put the heart for the horse. We need to understand who we're calling first, before we start articulating what the value prop is, what we're going to say. So give us a little insight around that, along those lines, Shawn.
Speaker 2 00:32:59 Yeah, I think the easiest way to say it is it's almost too easy is to say, is that the list is your strategy. And that means that depending on who you're targeting is going to determine what kind of script you should be using. And I would say that fundamentally there's three different scripts. There's a meeting set script where you're flat out just calling to get time on people's calendar. There's peripheral targeting, which is another fancy way to say referral. You know, if your Target's really hard to get to the dials that connects really low you'll need to employ a peripheral targeting where you're calling into other areas, trying to get a referral to somebody when it's very effective, because the scripts are they're easy. You know, you can tell the truth. Hey, I got a job to do, and I'm kind of lost. I'm trying to connect with this person and I'm looking for some advice.
Speaker 2 00:33:44 I was wondering if you could give me a hand or point me towards somebody who could give me a hand in actually find a referral or find a way in the door. The other one is actually very, very, very powerful. It's a survey script. And we use survey scripts in a lot of situations where for two reasons, really one where it's really hard to get in the door anyway, really hard to get a conversation going with somebody or to, for lack of better words, you you're using the model where you believe that the SDR role is an entry level role. So you're hiring people to make these calls who don't have any experience, business acumen, confidence, and so on. Not that they can't get on the phone to make the calls, but when you don't have business acumen and a mind for what's going on, you're in a lot of trouble, you know, you're going to, it's going to be, every call is going to be like looking at Medusa.
Speaker 2 00:34:38 You know, you're going to freeze up like, ah, every time. So we created this survey model where it's really great because it uses some of the fundamentals of cold calling, which would be, why do we cold call? Right? Build familiarity, gather info, set meetings, and close deals, right? I mean, that's, those are the four things that we do take it from Chubb, jet blunts, fanatical prospecting, chapter six, go read it. Then when you're calling, when you're doing surveys, the great thing about surveys is that you can actually blame it on someone else. You know, Hey, my CEO gave me a list of the top 100 growth companies. So you know, a little pat on the back, like you guys are awesome. We know that already. He asked me if I could call and ask you three simple questions, it looks like it should only take half a minute.
Speaker 2 00:35:22 Are you ready? Are you ready? Like take half a minute. Are you ready? If people just turn around and go again, this is from a lot of, a lot of experience, right? People turn around and go. I know what they're thinking in their head. 30 seconds, answer the questions, get this first out of my hair. Good, great. Perfect. Let me, and so for digital, for instance, you know, say you're, you're trying to get more e-commerce clients for, because you want to run their ads or whatever. You're better than someone else. They just need to know you exist. Right. And anyway, that's funny, another, another great value prop, right? We're better than them. So you call up and say, Hey, my CEO gave me a list of the top 100 pet growth companies. What appear to be the top 100 pet growth companies. And he asked me if I could just ask you three quick questions and I'll get out of your hair.
Speaker 2 00:36:04 Are you ready? So did you grow more than 27% last year? Yes or no. No. Perfect. Are you using Amazon as a media engine? You know, are you paying for ads on Amazon? Yes or no? No. You're not there. Are you while you're enrolled or are you actively enrolled in any affiliate programs? So you're making money while you sleep? No, we're not. Okay. Perfect. That's all I needed to know. We're going to actually publish the results of this, uh, survey probably in the next six weeks. Any objection to me sending you a copy. We just see how you stack up against your peers. Yeah, sure. Great. What's your email address? So you get an opt in out of it, right? Perfect. All right. So now what you've actually done is you've gathered some information and said, you're cutting. Like, Hey, do you have any questions for me?
Speaker 2 00:36:43 Great. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me. I can't thank you enough. Right? And this is, this is a contrived process, right? We call it compound conversations. We're we're gonna continue to do this part with the list, the first time calls to do these surveys. But now this person moves into another list where we're going to follow up no matter what, Hey Sam, this is Shawn over at whatever marketing company and Hey, I called you the other day. You know, my CEO asked me to call and you were kind enough to answer a couple of questions for a survey. You know, he took a look at the results and he actually said, Hey, will you do me a favor? Give them a call back and see if you can get me a meeting with them. I've got some ideas that might help them.
Speaker 2 00:37:20 Maybe not get above 27% in growth, but at least help them keep up pace with growth in the category heading into the first quarter. So, you know, my ask is super simple today. Any objection to putting some time on the calendar, to meet with my, uh, CEO or 80 or whoever, you know, next week. And they just wants to share these little things with you and no risk, no pressure. Even if you, none of it's of interest to you, you can maybe take what he teaches you or what you learn and implement it, you know, with your team. As a matter of fact, you guys do this stuff in house, or do you have an agency that you use now? You're, you're back to the law of familiarity calling back on the survey, being super kind. It's one-on-one they don't mind talking to you because you're courteous, you're professional and so on.
Speaker 2 00:38:00 And now you went from survey to meeting ask, and they say, no, you know, we have a team, I've got some deadlines. I'm just not going to do this. You know, Hey, well, if we keep the door wide open for you, Sam, would it make sense to do this maybe next month? Would that work better for you when your deadline is over? Yeah, maybe. Well, how about we put a time on the calendar right now and that'll keep you from getting a restraining order if I continue to follow up and then, you know, a week before the meeting, I'll just make sure that we're, we're good to go again, all these little tactical things to try to get a meeting on the calendar that we'll deal with later on. Again, I think that that's probably one of the most overlooked
Speaker 1 00:38:34 Or I like that I've never even heard of. I mean, I've heard of the, Hey thought leadership tried to, you know, from a cold call standpoint, Hey, we're doing this, we're running an article. We'd like to get your opinion on this, this and this as a thought leader in the space. I've heard that, but not to the degree of kind of what you just articulated. Sean. I think that's a big miss. What you're saying is kind of going there with a very disarming, Hey, you're giving them a pat on the back, most innovative companies, pat on the back, love to get your opinion on this. Take half a minute. Boom. You asked the questions that are somewhat related, tied to what you kind of do the 27%. And they say, we're going to publish that. Thanks for, thanks for your time. But then the one, two punch of that is the compounding piece of it. As you put, it is a, follow-up say, Hey, we've reviewed it. We think there are some things, you know, and I'm obviously ad-libbing this, but there's some things that we think we might be able to share some value or be able to bring to the table, especially initially in the new year. Do you have some time next week to have a conversation with my CEO? That's a one-two punch that I think is that's obviously we wouldn't be having this conversation if it's not an effective mechanism from what you've seen correctional
Speaker 2 00:39:41 Absolutely. In those, all those different models were developed around these simple ideas that cut through every call like this fundamental one to three of fear, to curiosity, to trust, right? And so sometimes we have to break it down, you know, thin, slice it down into smaller little pieces that our target audience can actually absorb, which I think goes back to, you know, the original talk track here was, uh, the original topic was the list, how important it is, right? And depending on what's going on with your list and the way that you and I are discussing is bullseye lists put together with the correct script and even, even taking talent into effect right into consideration. I should say that if you have reps that can't, I mean, let's be honest. Like, you know, sometimes you going to set the VP aside and say, look, I get the idea that SDR is an entry level job, but you've kind of mismatched you're, you're trying to call the, you know, the CFOs of fortune 500 companies and you hired this person who was, you know, not to take anything away from anybody.
Speaker 2 00:40:43 I don't even want to say it was, was delivering drinks at Applebee's last week. You know, you would probably have to get lucky to hit it, hit it out of the park, but again, but you didn't, you didn't. So we need to lighten the load on the expectation here and do something different and that's taking into consideration what we have your target. And I was thinking, I mean, that's a great formula, right? I mean, your resources, when they're greater than your customer's expectations, something good is probably going to happen. But if your customer expectations are greater than your resources, it's not going to work. You know, it's, it's not, it's not going to work. So yeah. So that's why we put all these things together in, and I'll tell you, like you say, we're talking about the perfect storm, the perfect scenario. What we've most often, I mean like, I mean, 99% of the time people are in such a hurry to try to do outbound that they make every mistake you can think of starting with poor targeting in it.
Speaker 2 00:41:38 It's really sad too, because I think that the model, the omni-channel prospecting model of the availability of data, the proliferation of sequencers and so on, and then just plugging a person into that. Like let's download 30,000 contacts, put it into 21, touch cadence and let some newbie drive it that fly straight into the side of the mountain. Because what's interesting is that this is what we see. We have people send us lists so we can run them through our validation process to figure out who answers the phone above their SDR funnel. So we had those lists over to STRs with a script that goes with the people who answered the phone. I'll take just as a professional quality control, all open up the spreadsheet, the CVS file, you know, it's got 200 rows or 300 rows or a thousand rows. It only it, how long does it take?
Speaker 2 00:42:23 It takes less than a minute to look at the title, just to scan it almost every single time. I facetiously call people back and say, you know, Sam, you sent me this file before I submitted it for validation. I thought I'd just take a quick look at it. And it only took me 30 seconds to, to have me want to ask you this question, and I'm going to bring up this question with, you're probably going to be offended by it. And if you don't want me to ask it, then I won't. But if it's okay with you, I'm going to go ahead and ask it is all right with you, you know? And then they say, yeah, sure. I said, okay, you said it was okay. I don't think that you're taking this process seriously. And I don't think that you're a very good fit to work with us.
Speaker 2 00:42:58 You know, I look through this list and it doesn't look like this isn't going to work. There's no, of all the things we've talked about, you have different titles are all over the place. This is supposed to be a list of XYZ, but you've got human resources and talent acquisition in all kinds of other people in here. I'm not sure how you did this, but I'm guessing that you thought you needed more contacts than less. So you widened your search on zoom info to fill the gaps. And that's the same thing as asking your SDRs to fill up their day with a hundred dials, like do 100 dials. That's the same concept. Fill, fill the day with activities. And that's not what we're doing. We're we need outcomes over activities. We're trying to shrink this down into the most precise attack that we can. And that means the target, the script, the talent, all of those things combined together.
Speaker 2 00:43:49 And then you're going to take this list and narrow it down to the people who answered the phone. If you gave me a list of 200 people and I come back with 50 people who answer the phone and 25 of them are in the strike zone. You're going to say, oh, we need to go back and do this. And so my question is, are you serious about doing this or not? Because I'm looking for good partners, good clients. I want to be successful for you. And this won't be, I can't go forward with this list. I can't tell you Sam, how often that happens. That happens every single time to the point where like, you don't know how to put a list together, man. I mean, it's crazy. It's absolutely crazy.
Speaker 1 00:44:26 Yeah. You know, it's funny, Sean, and I know we're bumping up against it, but I was recently been reading a book and w why this hits home so much for me, it's a book by Scott Chanel. I don't know if you've ever read him, sell the meeting, but in his estimation he says 70% of the effectiveness from cold calling is the list. It's essentially who are you targeting? Right. 20%, 20 to 30% is what you say. And the 10% is the other, you know, how often you're touching them or whatever the case might be. I can't remember what the whole metric is, but he puts the entire onus, literally 60, 70% on, if you don't know what you're aiming at, if you don't know what the target is, you're just spending your spraying. It's dialing for dollars. Like it used to be in the 1980s, just picking up the phone and hoping good stuff happens. And so I think that's why it resonates with me and why it's so important to make sure you're honing in on that IC, I say ICP, but a targeted list of people. Cause then you can drill that down into people that you can actually reach.
Speaker 2 00:45:27 Yeah. Well, I mean, you know that depending on where you're calling into the message is going to be different. So you want to create different lists for different messaging because the pain and the problem, I guess they even ended a discovery call to write that the pain and the problem that the people that are dealing with it, they have a completely different perspective on why they would want it fixed as opposed to whether or not it's important to the CEO or the CFO or the chief operations officer. I always say even, even AEs, right? I mean, even AEs have two separate jobs to do, right. They, they have to figure out problem to solve and then they have to articulate it in a way that somebody would fund it to get it solved. And the people that have the problem, aren't always the best people to take that up the ladder. They don't know how to do it. I always find that that that's missing. That's just another rung in the ladder. Another step that's missed around what is the age job as all of the SDRs are pining to become a ease. You know, it's, it's crazy. There's a lot of different steps in there
Speaker 1 00:46:24 Without a doubt. So, Sean, I know we've covered a lot, so I want to kind of bubble this down. I'm going to kind of boil down the ocean. I think what, we've, what I hope the audience takes away from this is start with the list. Make sure you've honed in on the list are leveraging a solution like you guys have at five by noon, but hone in on your list, make sure you're targeting the right people. Then, like you said, it's kind of a sequence of events, right? So it's fear, it's curiosity. It's trust two way conversation. The three things that we talked about, you should never be leading with product value. And these are a lot of things that you guys have been crafting over years of time to kind of hone in on objection. Handling is not a natural part of that two way conversation.
Speaker 1 00:47:04 It's a law of diminishing return or there's somebody right behind that that could be a much more available and much more viable for your product. And then the empathy piece. And I agree with you. I don't know where empathy kind of fits into that cold calling scheme to your point, that whole piece of it. But I love the conversation that we've had. How do people engage with you? How they learn more about five by noon. You, I know you're all over LinkedIn. We're going to put links to all of that in our show notes, but how do they get in
Speaker 2 00:47:30 Touch with you, Sean? Yeah, you can go to five by noon.com. It's the number five by noon. And that was something that we developed over the years. The idea was take aim at setting five appointments by noon because the job isn't that hard, it's pretty insurmountable task because that's a hundred appointments a month. But the idea is is that if you take aim at a goal like that, that you can, then you really need to set up the incremental steps to achieve that. And the couple of things that we've done along the way that are underneath all of this is that channel validation. Like we've moved to a channel validation model of prospecting in direct contrast to omni-channel. In other words, take your list, figure out who answers the phone and call them if they don't answer the phone, maybe LinkedIn, but again, and then maybe email, but each one of those different channels is a different voice, a different way that you message interruptive conversation and meeting, asking on the phone, subtle learning, meet with me, comment on my things on LinkedIn, a whole entirely different voice.
Speaker 2 00:48:28 And then email same thing. I mean, emails, just dying. I mean, who knows? So, and then inside of your team, so we have channel validation, figure out which channel, what the correct voice is and the right context and context for that channel, and then move your model from activities to outcomes. Because the worst possible thing that can happen to an SDR that erodes the culture of any team is when activities become timecards. In other words, the end of day report is 110 dials, 70 emails you want, you want outcomes? I always say, sales leaders get this bad habit of saying, how did it go when they should be saying, how did it end? How did it end? And so that's that, uh, channel validation versus omni-channel prospecting sequences are just killing your gains, like killing your gains, but it's popular. And if you, it, right, the only thing to do these days is to optimize that right? Do more of it. Like if we're getting 2%, 5%, that means if we add another thousand, percentage-wise no you're killing. Your reps will to live. It's all about
Speaker 1 00:49:29 Scale, right? It's
Speaker 2 00:49:30 All about faster. And that means moving from activities to outcomes. And as soon as you take aim at outcomes, then you have to start saying, well, shoot, how can my reps have eight to 12 conversations a day? And if they did, they'd actually be able to take advantage of all of these great ways, surveys, peripheral, targeting, and so on because next list message. Next list message. The last piece I would say about top of funnel, outbound prospecting to bring it all together is that you need to give it enough time. And I don't mean you need to give it enough time to see results and outcomes. You'll get meetings right out of the gate. If you don't, someone is lying to you and they don't have a good process, especially third-party prospecting. The reason why you want to give it time is that statistically only a tiny percentage of people are in the market for your products.
Speaker 2 00:50:14 I mean, think about it in terms of two or three-year contracts, right? If it's a three-year contract with somebody they're only in the market, one out of 12 quarters, which is 8% of the time. So when you're calling up people, you can either have a conversation and build rapport, looking to the future and just grab the lucky ones along the way, which is what it is in the beginning, an Easter egg hunt in the beginning, but after three months or six months or nine months or 12 months of building followups. And so on your follow-up calls from months ago, start to intersect with your cold calls. That's when you start to get close to five by noon, problem is people don't ever get to that point because they're a hundred calls a day, two conversations, no meetings, we better work. We better spend our time learning how to objection, handle and do all these other things that we wished, you know, we justify our existence for reasons we wished our prospects cared about, but they don't. Right.
Speaker 1 00:51:06 Sean sincerely appreciate the conversation. It was fantastic, man. Pleasure. So thanks again for being on the
Speaker 2 00:51:12 Thank you for having me, Sam. I appreciate it.
Speaker 0 00:51:16 Thank you for listening to the sales samurai podcast with your host, Sam Capra. Be sure you subscribe to our podcast and visit sales samurai.io and join the conversation. Access show notes and discover bonus content.
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