Oct. 21, 2021

Sales Prospecting Simplified

Sales Prospecting Simplified

Episode 18: Sales Prospecting Simplified with Nico De Bruyn
Rather than struggling to start a conversation with someone who doesn’t need what you’re selling, there are ways to streamline and systematize the process to make it more efficient and productive. On today’s show, we discussed some tactical tips for simplifying your sales prospecting with the CEO of Boundless Media, Nico De Bruyn. Nico is an entrepreneur with a focus on helping brands break through the noise to win more clients and live better lives. Tuning in, you’ll learn the value of personalization, creating human connections, and using online marketplaces to zero in on your ideal clients. Nico also shares his insight into Boolean searches and contextual follow ups that add value, as well why he believes that salespeople tend to overcomplicate the prospecting process in the first place. Nico has a key piece of advice for listeners who are struggling with prospecting: ask yourself what sales would look like it was easy, then make that a reality! Make sure not to miss this conversation full of winning sales strategies and practical examples with no-nonsense author, digital marketer, growth hacker, speaker, and entrepreneur, Nico De Bruyn!

Key Points From This Episode:

  • Hear about Nico’s background and why he doesn’t consider himself a ‘traditional marketer’.
  • The differences between sales and marketing and why Nico takes a holistic approach.
  • How to break through the noise: find what works and master it before moving on.
  • Find out how personalization can help you connect with more people.
  • Nico shares some elements from his custom email template; don’t overcomplicate it!
  • The benefits of multichannel prospecting, auditing your time, and just being human.
  • Find more people who need what you are trying to sell using online marketplaces.
  • Nico’s tips for developing your ideal client profile (ICP); be specific!
  • How Google has all the answers you need for channel identification.
  • How to use the Boolean keywords, ‘AND’, ‘OR’, and ‘NOT’, to narrow it down.
  • Outreach methods you can try once you’ve found people who need what you’re selling.
  • Nico outlines the benefits of sending contextual follow ups that add value.
  • Why it can take from seven to 16 follow ups in your email cadence to convert a lead.
  • Why Nico believes that salespeople tend to overcomplicate the prospecting process.
  • The value of leaning into the unknown; embrace the no’s!
  • Ask yourself: what would sales look like if it was easy?
  • Nico’s final thoughts: find someone smarter than you to learn from and someone worse off than you to teach.


“Find something that works, double down on it, master it, and then move to that next thing.” — @nico_debruyn [0:06:36]

“Whoever your target market is, there is a marketplace or a place online [where] people are already raising their hand, needing your service, and having budget for it. You can have a conversation with them rather than cold prospecting to people who might never need what you have.” — @nico_debruyn [0:22:27]

“You want to find where on the internet these micro-communities are living that [already have] the infrastructure to help you reach the person that needs your service.” — @nico_debruyn [0:31:17]

“Ask yourself: what would sales look like if it was easy? [If it’s] ’Someone has already teed up all the leads for me.’ Great. Then, hire someone to tee up those leads for you.” — @nico_debruyn [0:48:03]

“Go and learn from someone, learn from those podcasts, and then teach it to someone.” — @nico_debruyn [0:51:31]

“Know that it’s a continuous process. You’ll be a better salesperson, better leader, better marketer after this podcast, after next week, after next month than you were a year ago.” — @nico_debruyn [0:52:32]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:

Nico de Bruyn on LinkedIn

Nico De Bruyn Email

Nico De Bruyn on Twitter

Boundless Media



The UK’s Most Hated Sales Trainer

Sam Capra on Linkedin

The Sales Samurai B2B Sales Podcast


Title Sponsors:


Speaker 0    00:00:01    Coming to you from Orlando, Florida, Orlando, Florida, and streaming around the world around the world. You're not tuned in to the sales samurai podcast. The only B2B sales podcast, providing unfiltered unapologetic views and tactics directly from the sales trenches. Here's your host, Sam Capra  
Speaker 1    00:00:30    Welcome episode 18 of the sale samurai. Thanks for listening. Do us a quick favor. Take a moment to subscribe and download on today's show. We're going to be discussing sales, prospecting simplified, and I have an amazing guest for you today. Nico. LeBron is the CEO of boundless media and entrepreneur with a flair for leaving everyone. He meets better than how he found him. Nico is focused on helping brands break through the noise to win more clients and live better lives. Nico man, welcome to the show, man. How you doing brother, dude, like we were talking about, we are alive. It's 90% of the battle. So like I'm fired up, dude. I'm fired up. You can't ask for anything better Friday talking about what we're going to be talking about. That that's living the dream. Isn't it honestly. And this is how I always like to talk through with people, right?  
Speaker 1    00:01:20    This is probably going to be the most. Okay. No BS. I'm going to do this today and start making money today. Podcasts that we're ever going to have. So I'm excited cause there's no theories. There's no pie in the sky. It's just tactical, tactical, tactical. I love it brother. Hey man. Cause I, I know this was prospecting is a, is one of those types of things. I it's the most challenging part of most sales pieces from, from a sales standpoint, but it's also the one I'm always the most intrigued by because I think things, you know, it's funny, I go two sides on that. I can't talk out both sides of my mouth. I think things have changed, but as much as they've changed, I think we, we over-complicate it. So I know we're going to talk about just simplify it, man. Just make it simple.  
Speaker 1    00:02:05    So I'm looking forward to that. But before we do kind of get the eyes a little bit of a background, you have a unique background. Talk to the audience, little bit about what your background looks like and then we'll kind of dive in from there. Yeah, no and thank you for teeing it up this way. The biggest thing that people need to know about me is I'm not a traditional marketer and a lot of people do say that, but my background isn't marketing. It isn't business, even it is a medicine. So I'm a, uh, a glorified failed medical student. Uh, I'm an immigrant. So my story was came here wanting to being a doctor, much like many other immigrants, horrible addict. Cause I just didn't care. I just, I didn't not that medicine isn't important. I just didn't like it. So my story is I decided I wanted to be a, a entrepreneur, a business person because I failed at every single other thing.  
Speaker 1    00:02:53    Everything from law to logistics, I did every single thing underneath the sun. And the one thing I was somewhat good at was, and sales. And even in that, we didn't even talk about this last, last time we chatted, but I actually sold $175,000 worth of clothing when I was a retail associate just in a two month period during Christmas. Right? So looking back, I'm like, oh yeah, I've been a sales guy forever. Like it's 175,000. That's a lot of money, you know, especially as like a 16, 17 year old. So I've only had to learn marketing because I have a business and it needs to grow today. And so everything I do is tactical. That's awesome, man. Hey, so you fall and incredibly, like you said, I think you're a unique breed because there are traditional marketers that are much more marketing central and you know what the right term would be.  
Speaker 1    00:03:45    And then there's the sales aspect. Then there's these unique people that have the ability to kind of blend those two together. And they really have two sides of their brain, kind of the marketing side to drive demand. They understand the inner workings of that, but they're also naturally a sales guy and I kind of bucket you in the latter. I kind of that hybrid. That's not common. I would say that's more of the rare you are. The minority. The majority of it, correct me if I'm wrong. Do you find that marketers kind of aren't necessarily, they're not the sales, Acumen's not the sales personality. They are a different kind of breed or my off base there, Nico. Well, I think you're on it. I think most people are either one part or another part. I think as many entrepreneurs, business people and especially anyone working in a small company knows you can't have one hat, you have seven.  
Speaker 1    00:04:34    And I've only had a career in small companies, startups and fast growing companies where you can't have a, a different camp for marketing in a different camp. For sales. There has to be a bridge. There has to be overlapped between them because you're fighting to stay alive. So do you have the luxury of saying, oh, I'm a sales guy. I shouldn't worry about what content we're posting on social or email newsletter or if people are coming to events and same on the other side, like sales guys, can't just say, oh, I just have to jump on the call and close people now, like there's work, you have to do on both sides because it's holistic. Right. That's awesome, man. So talk to me a little bit about kind of in the space you're in and kind of what you've been doing. Obviously you've been doing this for a while.  
Speaker 1    00:05:23    I like to get your impression, whether it's marketing sales. I think they're so closely tied together. Like from, from a B2B standpoint, at least I should say. But what do you think the biggest things that have changed since you began this process? What's the biggest things that have changed for the better and for the worst when it comes to marketing sales and the kind of that hybrid kind of area of the marketplace. Yeah. I think this goes for most digital based businesses. It's gotten a lot more noisy and that doesn't necessarily mean it's harder to stand out today. I actually will go on the other side. I think it's easier to stand out today and we can talk about why I think that, but I think there's many more distractions for both marketers sales people, business leaders, where, oh, I need to be on Tik TOK, Instagram, LinkedIn.  
Speaker 1    00:06:10    I need to be prospect on email. I need, what's this new thing podcasts. Now I've got to be on podcasts and have a weekly show there. I think by all these different mediums that the internet has opened up, it's gotten so much more in the wheezy and people's attentions have now become less focused. So it's become more and more noisy. But that kind of exactly why I say it's easier to stand up because if you can hone in and I tell people this all the time, find something that works double down on it, master it and then move to that next thing and prospecting sales, marketing succinct way. Then if you follow that formula, you're continues to just getting better results by focusing on a specific thing and then moving to something else. That makes sense. Yeah. I'd love to kind of, and you do have a little bit of a different take.  
Speaker 1    00:06:59    I thought you were going down one path with that, with the noise and you threw me, you throw the full a bit of a curve ball up half too, because you know, I, I agree to some aspects of that. I agree on and there's obviously aspects I don't agree on. Now. We're going to dig into, like you said, Hey, let's dig on why I think it's easier to break away from the noise and stand out from the noise. There's a few topics how I've always seen it. I've all I've seen the good and the bad in my view. And you can very easily probably sway me. But my view has always been, the good has been the technology. The better in sales is from technology, right? Because it drives the efficiencies. It drives the effectiveness. You can do it much better at scale. The bad side of it is it just creates an inordinate amount of noise.  
Speaker 1    00:07:46    Like where I used to get maybe five emails a day, I'm getting 184 emails a day and they're all kind of the same using the same template, the same master course. You're just letting me know. Number one, Hey, I'm busy. Number two. This call me back. Number three, lose my email, whatever the template, dear givi or whatever you want to break up, email, whatever they're called. Now, I am really curious. I do want to dig in because you seem to believe that this is actually a great time to break away and break outside the noise. So let's dig in there. We've talked about this a couple of times. Hey, there's you believe there's really three keys to simplifying how to prospect, Hey, we're going to dig into that. I want you to start with the noise. Like if you're tactically saying, Hey man, here's how you get outside of the noise.  
Speaker 1    00:08:36    Here's how you leverage the noise. Share a little bit about that. Personalization. One word personalization. To your point, it's gotten really easy to reach out to anyone. I could reach out to some big marketers in the space we, you and I can reach out to any sharp we want mark. Cuban's email is out there. Anyone can reach out to him. And there's two things, no one reaches out to mark Cuban anymore, right? Because it's it's there. But also when it becomes easy to reach out to anyone, we tend to get lazier because we're like, oh, everyone should just get the same template. 1, 2, 3. That's where if you add just a slightest type of personalization in there and you can't do that at scale. Right? So one thing that we do and we're going to get very tactical. If I'm reaching out to the organization, I always look for who they're hiring for.  
Speaker 1    00:09:26    Right? So I look for in the last seven days, have you posted any job related to marketing? Because I can then reference that into my email or LinkedIn outreach and say, Hey, Sam saw that you guys are hiring for growth at company name that's contextual because they just posted that. I don't want anything past seven days because I might have filled the position. There's a lot of things that you're not just don't know, but just by adding that sentence and in my data scraping, I can look for that. I'm standing up because yes we are hiring Nico, can you save your money like outsourcing rather than insourcing. So there are ways to add personalization in there and I'm telling you, we send 40 personalized emails. Every single day. Our open rates are 60, 70, 80% of those, you know, our response for 10, 15, 20%, because they're just custom.  
Speaker 1    00:10:15    So, so let me understand that because you know, that seems to be, and I hate, I hate this, but you know, there's always these buzzwords that get, keep buzzing around. Right. You know, and, um, personalization. I, if I hear personalization one more time, I think I'm going to personally blow my brains out. But, but you're right. I mean, personalization is the holy grill, right? That's what we're trying to drive, but you'd have to agree. And I like the example you gave, Hey, just based on what they're hiring in the past seven days, it's contextual, it's personalized. It shows them I've done some research. I've done my due diligence and I've created a hook on how we can help drive that, that, that makes perfect sense. However, help me, Nico, because there's the other side of that coin where people overdo it. Like they're actually getting paralysis by analysis.  
Speaker 1    00:11:03    They're trying to get so in the weeds on personalization that they can never possibly scale it. Like can't scale, trying to learn everything there is to know about a Sam Capra. Like at some point you've just got to pull the trigger and say, Hey, relevance, personalization, whenever you call it. Right. There's a point of no return, right? Diminishing returns if you will. Yeah. So that's a really good question. The answer is pretty simple. In my opinion, still use your templates and customize certain aspects. So I'll give you my exact template. Oh, LA first name Ola. Howdy. Use that. No one that everyone says hire, Hey Ola, howdy. People are like, at least it gets open rates. We AB test. It's awesome. Is that a subject line or is that the actual first part subject line? I'll be honest. The ones that work best for empty or something, not even related to it.  
Speaker 1    00:11:52    Like peanut butter and jelly question mark. It's so, so there's so many, there's so many, and again, we would reach out to decision makers at fairly large companies. So I take that with a grain of salt. Maybe that doesn't work for a mom and pop, but hello, first name then the next sentence. Right? And this is like under 11 words is something related to your last podcast. So if I'm reaching out to you, Sam, I'm going to bring up, Hey, I just listened to listened on apple. Uh, what is it? Apple podcasts like apple podcasts where you heard them, or maybe you saw your posts on LinkedIn about your podcast and loved one thing. You could just look at the show notes. You don't have to listen to the podcasts and boom personalization. Right? I gave you something that you gave me. Next one. Don't try to hide that.  
Speaker 1    00:12:39    This is a cold email. Just say so because I'm so lead gen focused and mine's all about growth, but are you looking to explore more opportunities for your SAS company? Or like, are you looking to outsource whatever that is next, be up front that you can't help everyone. Everyone always says like, I can help anyone. And I say, and feel free to steal this. I don't have a bag of pixie dust. I just know I've helped other founders in software based businesses generate more leads every single day. Next subject line. Bad idea to show you exactly how PS another custom point saw there's raining in Phoenix today. Stay safe. P P S you want me to take a hike? Just let me know. Just follow that template to customization points. Right? Every single time you spend less than two minutes on it. My team does it now.  
Speaker 1    00:13:29    So I don't do every single email, but that's the template. Right? And then two at the top, I like the old holiday. It is kind of, you're like, maybe that's something I said, Sam, so Sam next subject line something custom under 11, 15 words. Why you're reaching out. Okay. Uh, acknowledge that this is cold and that you can't really help everyone. Pixie dust one, another custom PS location, school, mascot, company news. Anything that you can scrape from online, frankly, and then PPS give them a way out. I like to say, if you want me to go dive in the ocean and get lost, take a hike to Mount Everest, make it fun. Because even their respond back, it's ROI positive for you because it boosts your deliverability and trust. So yeah, that's my template there. So I, I liked that. Um, so that's really, and we're going to kind of dig into this, but I think those type of little nuances, I think what we always try to do, going back to the original thought process at the top of this was we over-complicate things.  
Speaker 1    00:14:39    And we make things every, like we try to throw everything at the wall. We tried to a block of text. Yeah. Call it the mental block. Right. Because if I see anything more than a couple of sentences put together, deleted automatically. And again, most people I'll be honest. Most people want the person getting the email to do something outrageous. Give me 30 minutes. Give me, give me, give me, give me. It's not about you. It's about them. I just, I told them, do you want me to show you how I do it? Yes. Great. Here's another email. My video, the exact process I do. Nico. That's hard. I don't want to do it. Let's talk. I used to look, let, let me, let me, I'm going to dovetail off that because this is a good subject because I find email is we can get into the, the right or wrong.  
Speaker 1    00:15:26    Uh, we're lean too heavy on email versus we should just be picking up the phone. That's a completely different podcast to some degree, but I like talking about email for the simple fact that I still think there's a lot of juice for the squeeze there. I just don't think we're doing it. Right. So to your point, you've given us a couple of blurbs. I want to get your thoughts on, did the gifts work do, is it better just to be short and sweet or do you find like the gifts? Do you like to do the testing? Like I always, I always go back and forth on these things. Like, does it really work? Does it not? Does it get hung up in the spam folder or does it not like, what's your thoughts on that, Nico? Just from a sales perspective. Yeah. Last week, I would've told you stay away from the links, pitchers gifts, stay away from all of it.  
Speaker 1    00:16:06    We are testing for a podcast climb if very, very, like if I throw out some of the names for targeting, you'd be like, man, I, I know that person, like it's, it's, we're reaching out to their publicists, right? Uh, who get bombarded every single day and links and gifts are in there. So again, this is only a week and a half worth of data. It doesn't Trump that 12 months I have. But typically how I say is, you're still, over-complicating it. You need to get it out faster and stop changing your, your copy every single day and your subject line running for a week or two, get the data focus on going outside of the traditional. Okay. My automation ran out, done, done deal, right? You can scrape their email. That means you can script their LinkedIn, Google. Like one of their posts engage with it, send them an InMail, be valuable.  
Speaker 1    00:17:00    Like let's, it's all about numbers, numbers, numbers. If it worked how it used to work, you would only send five or 10 emails a day because you've just worked. Now we're overcompensating with numbers. Like let's be human there. That's why when you brought up cold call half the cocoa, I hate cold calling. But what you can do is called outreach on a different platform because maybe they, their email is full, but they're on LinkedIn or Facebook or Instagram. I don't gauge with them there. Yeah. You know, it's funny you bring that up because you know, I don't think I'm doing by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not doing it all right. But you know what I've, what I'm shocked by is the approach I get is I don't see multichannel a lot with people. And I get a lot of people reaching out to me as a head of sales.  
Speaker 1    00:17:47    They want to sell me whatever they think head of sales may need training, consulting, enablement, SAS, you name it. They got to sell to the VP of sales. And I'm always shocked that I must get a hundred emails from like over the course of three months from the same rep. And that's the exit. I'd never get a phone call. I may receive a LinkedIn connection and hit me up for an immediate meeting that might, I might go that, that may go that extent, but I've never, I very rarely get a phone call. And I was saying that, you know, good, bad indifferent. I've never one time. And I'm really active on Twitter, Nico. I have never one time been hit up. Hey, Sam, I saw this post or reply share. Hey, do you like? And I kinda think like, not once, like in the, and I have to say, that's probably been about 10 years.  
Speaker 1    00:18:35    I've been active. Not one time to your point. Like where is he active? That's how you break away from the noise. Everyone else is hitting them over here, but he's actually spending time here. And that's where he enjoys spending time. Talk to him there. And I get it as a sales guy. You're you have quotas to hit. I get it. Uh, and sometimes it's very hard to, it's hard to think this way, because you could just say, oh, I've sent more emails or get more automation in place. That's where I would really like people to really audit their time. Because like we talked about the majority of salespeople I talked to are updating their CMS platforms, their notes on leads more than they're actually talking to the person. Like if, if you dedicate 20 extra minutes that you were going to go, you know, do research on the company just to reach out to that person, like a couple of their posts, oh, they're going to be in Nantucket this weekend.  
Speaker 1    00:19:32    Like let's, let's, you know, we know someone in Nantucket they should connect with. So like the only reason I'm on this podcast is because I D I didn't the M Steve, I just commented on his post. Cause he had really good tips about sales. I could get behind. I liked it. And he commented, Hey, I never add lead gen people, but we should talk. And now we're good friends. I send him stuff all the time. We just have conversations. That's all human. Right? Yeah. I think sometimes through this whole process, we forget the human aspect of prospecting. It's just, let's have a conversation. Let's see if there's a fit, you know, that's not, and I know that's easier said than done. I mean, I even find myself sometimes putting on, over, put overcompensating with the salesy side of me. So it's a battle to some degree what I want to get into, because this was kind of the topic is that we are over-complicating.  
Speaker 1    00:20:23    And what we were going to chat around is simple ways. And I think a lot of people are going to resonate, simple ways to find people who need your product. You really had three keys, Nico. And I want you to walk us through those three keys to simplifying prospecting, cold outreach, however you want to verbalize it. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, uh, you'll, you'll appreciate this. Cause I'm, I'm a hundred percent candid, right? I know we talked those three, but I'm like, ah, there's so many more, but really let's just go down the list. And if I miss something you'll I know you'll jump in. But for me, the majority of people are struggling to find what I call ready to buy clients, or let's say you sell products or services. It doesn't actually matter which one we often, like, we talked about our reaching out to people who don't have a need, which is 97% of the population.  
Speaker 1    00:21:14    They just don't need what you have to sell. Right? So even if you did a hundred cold outreaches, only three of those would be in the market potentially for what you offer. And again, even within those now the three, how many actually like saw your email? Was it compelling enough to reach out? So you're, the numbers are stacked against you. This was a problem for me and my clients. And I started looking for where can I find people that are already raising their hand and wanting to learn more about a specific service and Samuel appreciate this. Cause everyone wants a Lamborghini, but no one has funds for a Lamborghini who has money to pay for the services or products that I offer. So that's what put me on to the kind of old fashioned marketplaces like Upwork, Fiverr, Craigslist. We're actually running a campaign. And we've been talking about this last time, getting the RSS feeds from Craigslist and specific cities and people who need a wedding venues who need photographers, DJs, all those like odd jobs that we can now source because people are already raising their hand, wanting to pay, have a budget and have needs.  
Speaker 1    00:22:25    So definitely what boils out to whoever your target market is. There's a marketplace or a place online, maybe Facebook groups, uh, as a, as another great way where people are already raising their hand, meeting your service and having budget for it. And you can just have a conversation with them rather than cold prospecting to people who might never need what you have. So let let's pause there because you brought up a couple of good things, but one thing you said, Hey, listen, the hunter to get to three. You really got to understand that, who that is, and then go find them in some of these marketplaces that might be a Facebook group, might be enough. Work might be a five, or it might be a thousand different areas. But I think Nico, what probably is just before that, right? Is you have to know who that ideal client profile is.  
Speaker 1    00:23:13    Correct. So is that the starting point like that? Like I think that's where I, some people I know in the sales side, they just batch and blast. They throw it up on the wall. Really? You should be getting down to like, who are those three people? What do they look like? And then now let's start finding those people. Right? Nico. What's your thoughts on ICP and developing the ICP. Listen, let me tell you everyone here. Good salespeople always have scripts and Sam has a script. So yes, ICP, then the platform and then follow up. So I got my three, thank you for dropping that in there. So I'm here for you brother. Hey, we're a team in this, right? So ICP scary word. Let's boil it down to what it is not everyone's your customer. And when you think a lot of people are your customer, you might have to reconsider.  
Speaker 1    00:24:00    Even if a lot of people in different niches buy your services or products, there are still a good 20% of those who spend more and are less of a hassle to you in the business than the other 80%. And they probably account for 80% of the revenue anyway. So there's a small group of people who love what you do are obsessed with you and will frankly like make you more money. And it's really all the ICP is. So let's just give an example. Uh, let's say that you are a event planner for large corporations, right? If you really look at your numbers in this case, your established, maybe technology businesses are the ones who give you the most free reign to do what you want. They have the biggest budgets and you have the most fun with them. That should be your ICP. That should be your ideal customer persona.  
Speaker 1    00:24:53    Right now, let's say you're just getting started. You're doing market analysis and you hate working with dentists. You shouldn't work with dentists, then it's not going to be fun. You're not going to want to do sales and prospecting and 7:00 AM calls, right? That's, let's be real. Uh, cause that sales people will take a call whenever you want. Right. That was for super fancy. But honestly, that's, that's the start of the ICP. Like really figuring out who's the ideal customer persona, where do they live? How much does their budget? The typical things are for a business size. How many employees, what industry are they in? Location and revenue, but we can't even dig further. Right? They are startups who have chief hiring or chief human or was it yeah, chief human officers or they have a founder. Who's still the CEO or for large companies. Maybe they have a head of partnerships as a, as a, as a starting point.  
Speaker 1    00:25:48    There's key characteristics about the business. And then you go into who's the decision maker who pulls the trigger is the CEO. COO is it intern, whatever that is, figuring out who the business type is. And with the ideal customer at that businesses will help you open up and say, oh, I'm actually not looking for everyone to buy. My course. I'm only looking for freelance designers. Who've lived in Texas and just graduated college. Don't want a nine to five and love Tim Ferris. I can communicate very specifically to those people rather than everyone. Who's a freelancer, right? So you develop the ICP. Let's really boil down the ocean to figure out who has the budget. Who do we like to sell to, to your point, want to be calling a dentist at 7:00 AM? But I like the tech side of things. And there's other layers that you can add to it.  
Speaker 1    00:26:40    Now, obviously people listening to this have their own nuances to their business, that they could probably layer into that ICP. So let's go down to, cause we were talking about this originally. So channel identification now you're layering in, okay, where do these people live? Work, sleep, play all that stuff. So walk us through channel identification because that is something to be quite candid with you. I would love a little bit more insight around to personally from it from a sales leadership standpoint. Absolutely. So let's say that you have your ICP. I'm going to keep throwing out many, many different examples because there's so many different people who are going to be listening to this. So we've done. So let's, let's do something, uh, frankly, a little more obscure. Let's say that you're a bookkeeper, right? You are a three person bookkeeper. And obviously for this podcast, at least in north America, let's say that you're in Atlanta, right? You love, love, love of working with manufacturing clients. That's your niche right now. There's one website and you're going to laugh when I say this, that has all the answers. It's Google. Very simple.  
Speaker 1    00:27:47    I haven't heard of that. Gary V always brings that one up. I laugh because it's true because it really let's start there. Let's type in manufacturing, client manufacturing businesses in Atlanta. Let's just say you want to start in Atlanta. Oh, that Nico real quick, because you bring up something that is so blatant, like Google, you know, I, and you probably noticed like the back of your hand, but like I really didn't even understand the power of Boolean searches until we can talk. Oh, I'm glad you're bringing it up. Is that I'm going to jump into Boolean searches and you're going to be like Nico. Okay. Yeah. Because yeah, but that got me down that no, you're good. You're good. And I always, I always liked to break my way of speaking into 1 0 1, 2 0 1, 3 0 1. So we'll get to 2 0 1, which is bullying. But first we jumped into Google and you jump and it say manufacturing businesses, Atlanta.  
Speaker 1    00:28:41    Okay. There's a website. Oh, there's a Facebook group. Oh, there's a, there's a, a meet like a Google meets because you know, pre COVID that happens every Thursday. Okay. Well there's your starting point. Now you jump in, you still having conversations. You just say, Hey, I'm an accountant. I specifically help manufacturing clients. And I'm just here to learn and grow. You might just get a business deal out of that. Well, let's say you don't because this is a real world, right? We want to be skeptical. Now you go back to Google, you went through the first three, four pages and you say, okay, great. Let's just do the south. Right. Manufacturing businesses in the south. And then you stumble on, this is a link to, to LinkedIn. Great. So there's a group in LinkedIn. There's 15,000 members in there. There's no way you can manually go through them.  
Speaker 1    00:29:29    You go to the search bar and you type in CEO or founder or head of manufacturing slash ops or whatever you okay. Any clothes that, you know, keep that in the parentheses. Right. When you say for that one, I would say that should be good actually. Then you say, Anne, right? So this ends or is it nuts? Right? So, and let's say manufacturing, startup, right? So now we're looking for CEOs, founders, you know, VP of ops or productivity. And they work at a company like, you know, I mean for you start now so many different ways to do Boolean searches that will come up and take that 15,000 person list out to 1500. And now you keep looking in there and there's bakeries. Well, I guess a bakery is kind of like a manufacturing, but like it's not. And then you say bakeries and then it goes down to like 600.  
Speaker 1    00:30:31    That's the power of moving search is first like find the place I call them. Database databases are like Yelp. You can do this in Yelp. You could do this LinkedIn sales navigator. You can do this in Google, but we have a client right now. They only do USU. I designed for startups, right? That's just, that's like the, the face and the workings of a website. Guys. They use a website called dribble.com. It's hyper-specific database where people raise their hand, say, I need a UX UI designer. If you're not UX, UI a UI, you don't use it. But it's just an aggregator, all that individuals. And then you can do filtering and below Boolean searches because maybe I only want 20,000, whatever. The reason for me to bring you up that is you want to find where on the internet, these micro communities are that need and really has infrastructure to help you reach the person that needs your service.  
Speaker 1    00:31:30    I brought a Facebook groups. There is a Facebook group for people in Arizona, where I live that want to buy used Teslas love Tesla. Love it. You almost, and I'm south African print. I need, I need one. If I was a, if I worked at a dealership, I would join every single Tesla. Appreciate you appreciation group buying and selling group. Someone posted yesterday. I have $80,000 cash for 2018 black Tesla about us. If I work at a dealership, right? Tesla dealership, I have that car right there, right? The ticket price is 75,000. I can just say, Hey, I can do that and deliver it for $80,000. Now I'm going to make my commission and I'm going to make it, if your 5k, by seeing that person that needs a specific thing that I have to offer. And now everyone's going to jump in there, but I don't want to be on Facebook and blah, blah, blah.  
Speaker 1    00:32:26    There are so many ways to set Google alerts. So if you're, if your Facebook on your computer, just log in. So Google alert for Facebook, if any, one of those key words show up, you get a nice little email or anytime someone posts about that. So let me, let's boil that down for a minute. So how we did, we did a very top level, the whole Google. Let's just understand what the landscape is. Let's put it into Google. Then we drill down from a Google and we start to say, okay, where are these? Micro-communities we could do that through bullion, directly in a Google. But when we get to those micro-communities in your instance, or your kind of example, you're on LinkedIn found a group in Atlanta, 15,000, Hey, I can't go through 15,000. That's when you really implemented getting into the micro of it, of dwindling that down.  
Speaker 1    00:33:17    If you got it, and then now your, your, your earth, your market just went from here. That is just batching and blasting. All of a sudden, it got down to a very finite audience that actually could potentially use your service, or at least it would be a much more effective use of your time reaching out to those 600 versus the 20,000. Yep. Yep. Yeah. In the next phase, we'll talk about now that we have these kinds of searches, what do we do next? But you're absolutely right. It's all about finding. And again, I would say there's no silver, silver bullet to marketing. We have ICP is half. You have to do an ICP for any outreach that you do. Well, I'm sitting here with people going to communities and people that are raising their hands. That need what you have is just part of your marketing outreach.  
Speaker 1    00:34:03    You still should do cold outreach because there are people who don't know about these communities, but we're just going out to people who actually have already identified what they have to offer or what they need, what you offer in that budget. Right? You cool with us jumping into the actual money-making part. Let's do it. We wrote down, we boil down the ocean. Now what the heck do we do, Nicole? I think I have a, I think having a glimmer of what we're going to do, please let us no, absolutely. So w we'll take the Tesla example in the 600, right? So 600 people, you know, that, that match our ICP and we're looking at them and we see that 400 of them have haven't posted on LinkedIn ever. They still have like the, like you've seen on LinkedIn where it's like no pitcher. Right? Okay.  
Speaker 1    00:34:49    So that means 400 of them are not relevant. And you can even filter down using LinkedIn and say they have to have posted something. And last 90 days, now it goes from 600 down to 200. Right. Then we even get more specific. And this is when, again, uh, I'm fancy. Now I have a staff that can help me, but I would go through every single of those. Right. And see, do they have a bookkeeper? There's probably half of them too. Probably more. Let's say this, let's say three fourths. So now we're down to like 50. So 50 of them don't have bookkeepers. Now take that template. We said earlier, whether it's called email cold, LinkedIn, cold, whatever carrier pigeon, it's gonna be the same thing. You're gonna say, oh, you know your first name, right. Then I, uh, I saw that you and I were both on the same group.  
Speaker 1    00:35:36    And let's say that there's something more personal. Right. And I love that you guys create iPhone cases, right. I actually have your brand right there. And maybe underneath, there's a picture of you with it. But regardless, then you jump into that sequence again, counting blah, blah, blah, PS. I noticed you don't have a bookkeeper. I'm doing free 30 minute audits. If you want to chat and then a PSS, if you want me to hit the road. Yeah. If you want them, you know, I would do something personal to manufacturing. Right. So I would Google a dad, jokes, manufacturing, and then go from there. Like we have one that kind of offense, like 1% of the population, but our cold outreach is why did the soda crusher quit his job? It was so depressing.  
Speaker 1    00:36:24    There's so, so many cheesy ones out there so bad. It's funny. Yeah. It's just like, oh my, and we've done that. Yeah. For people with like very technical fields, like we will look up jokes for forensic CPAs that were in business before the internet. And there's just, so people have done the work for you. Right. And same with the Tesla. One does that Tesla one's even easier because you can just go to Facebook messenger to this individual and say, Hey, have the car take a selfie because you're at the dealership. You're probably just, you're on your phone anyway. And I would, let's say then the name, I think her name was Brittany. So it'd be super funny. She had listened to this, but like, I would like, like print out something, you know that they have all the material already back there, like Brittany, here's your future car.  
Speaker 1    00:37:04    And just take a picture of it, Brittany. I have something awesome to tell you. It's like you pointing out the car and then Britney, I'm waiting for you or something like that. Like come save me or something like that. And you just direct message them contextual. Let me ask you this because here. So that's the first thing. And then obviously I'm sure you're like, Hey, maybe that first message. We all know this. This is tails. Not if you're laser focused, you may get someone to bite, but it takes up, right? I mean, there's gotta be a rhyme and a cadence, right? If you will, to the followup, do you agree with that? Oh, absolutely. Like with, with both of those, let's take those examples, right? They don't respond great. They didn't respond. Then you send another email and I hate the ones that I'm bubbling this up to your inbox. Right? We've all seen them. I use one of them. I'm not going to lie.  
Speaker 1    00:37:54    But again, first email, we're busy. We don't have to. So how do we send out? This is the second email. They somewhat know what we do. What if you told them, and this is where links kind of come in, what have you shot the video? And you're like, Hey, uh, I was on BBB. I saw that you guys just raised funding or whatever, right. Or I saw clutch or whatever. The, the contextual to your industry. I just thought that you're a VP of finance left. I'm so sorry to hear that. If I, if you need help finding someone, I have a lot of recommendations in the Atlanta, the south, I great contextual 50 left, but find something contextual to like, why you're following. This is what I do. I sent them late. Um, this individual, uh, he runs a, um, product design shop in the Midwest.  
Speaker 1    00:38:45    He doesn't really believe in this outreach method. The exact one we're talking about. So every single day I say, Hey, first name. I'm going to say his name got a lead for you, a screenshot. And the link I did this morning and every day, I just like send them a lead because that's, that's the value I can give. I'm giving. I'm just handing you business. You have to do anything. My services back to I'll do it for you. But for him, if he gets an email every day, and even if you do a mental calculation yesterday, it was a $7,500 deal. Today was a $2,000 deal. Hypothetically, if I reach out next weekend, say, Hey, uh, how's that extra 10 K to your pipeline, Nico. I got busy. I that's pretty powerful first name there's $10,000. And then I would then take a picture of like know for the shopping piles of money.  
Speaker 1    00:39:34    I'm like this match. And like, now I'm setting on fire or like just throwing it away. Right. But like figure how we can be valuable to them. Same with same with the Tesla one. I think it doesn't want it to be more funny because what I would do if I was this person is I would start a little series around like, it's so funny. Cause it's like the hashtag free Brittany movement. Uh, I same thing about the car. Like I would put the car outside, but like I tried to get away to find you a and the next day it's like a car, like, I don't know, umbrella, like a sad face on it. It's like, oh, I really thought we were meant for each other. It's like, I just think it's fun. Right? Yesterday. I, I was very straightforward with someone who who's keeps, goes to me and I made up a quote.  
Speaker 1    00:40:14    I said, Hey, first name as zebra is a zebra. Yeah. Zebras is zebra has a zebra and not a horse. Are you ghosting me? And then said, Nico, one cup of coffee. And he's like, okay, that's good. No, we should just have a conversation. That's awesome, man. So I love it. So ICP channel, you'll identify the channel, boil it down. So start at Google, boil it down to the right channel. You don't boil it down for their channel. Get even more finite, leveraging a bullion. And that's all about how do we reach out and let's get personal understanding what that, what that diagram Ola, uh, kind of the personalization, the context. What's the kind of the hook or the ask. Hey, are you looking for a bookkeeper? Those types of things. And then, Hey, if it does, let's have a conversation. If not go tell me to go fly a kite in some meaningful way. And then it's all about reaching out and following up in a systematic way. Yeah. And everyone always looks for a number. So I want to get very tactical. It's seven to 16 follow-ups and I'm going to pause there because it's seven to 16 followups. What was that?  
Speaker 1    00:41:21    So you're right. You're 100% agree with you, but what's this what's shocking to me. Is, is it like 85% of salespeople stop after the second or third? The second or third? Yeah. And that's again, we're talking about very tactical stuff. So yes, you could have a, I have a, what's called a ghosted more info, the sequence, right where you have not responded to my initial. Hey, I saw you canceled the meeting. Uh, do any of these times work? Hey, first name still. Haven't heard back from you, by the way, here's a free audit. And then after like two, three, I'll put them in a automatic email cadence and in there, or interrupt me and say, Hey, go. Like one of their posts, comment on something. And I just let her run until it runs out and notifies me so. Gotcha. Cool. I know a guy he's a really good friend of mine.  
Speaker 1    00:42:08    He runs a very similar agency. He has a 64 email cadence. It he's aiming for it to be 24 months that you will get an email from him every week. Wow. It is all valued. Oh yeah. It's all value. So it's a, so it's like, you know, so she takes this whole process and then I keep breaks it down. He basically takes this whole process and finds like a micro step. So for a micro step, for me, it could have been like how to use Google, to find websites. How now you have websites from last week, right? Here's a recap and how to do it and just give them as much value as possible. That makes sense. I like that. I mean, that's a, that's a different approach. I, I kind of equate that and I won't go too far into that. I kind of equate that to, I know you referenced Gary V a little earlier around the whole Google thing.  
Speaker 1    00:42:56    I've referenced that to jab, jab, jab, right? Hook book, you know, give, give, give before you're asking for the ask. You sometimes you do have to get right. You got to build value. You got to build trust. You got to build rapport. And that goes back to the whole LinkedIn connection and immediately asking for a meeting. You haven't given, like there's, that's not even one jab. It's like knockout. I, you gotta give to get to some degree. So that's awesome, man. So let's quickly talk about, because we've talked about this a little earlier, the reason I say it quickly is why do you think we talked about this offline? Like, that's a pretty simple, like you didn't, you didn't reinvent our stole it, right? It's not like, why do we, over-complicate it, there's a couple of things we talked about offline that we kind of thought like, what, what do you equate?  
Speaker 1    00:43:42    Why we lean to over-complicating this process? So typically it's because we don't believe in a product or service that we're selling and we don't, we're not vested into it. If you're a sales person it's, you don't believe that your ex can achieve Y then it's very hard for you to wake up because we're all, most of us are really good people and we never want to cheat anyone out of anything. Right. So it's a chore for you to do it. But the second one is really, I think, as it's you don't have a systematized approach, right? Like a person, like I know my routine, I know how long it takes. I know what's going to happen. I have cadences and everything built up. And if I don't, I build it. So a lot of people don't have a process that they can follow. They feel like they're making it up every day.  
Speaker 1    00:44:24    And that means they can more easily go to their phone and check Facebook and call that market research. You know? And the third one is I think it's, it really boils down to some intrinsic way of you not wanting to actually do it. And it's much, it's scary to reach out to people who might say, no, it's easier to fill out your CMS or update your lead list or something like that. Naturally putting in the work and reaching out to people. So it's true. Like some days you just don't want to do that. You don't want to hear a no, but it's going to happen. And um, if you ever want them to watch someone kind of crush it, the UK is most hated sales person. I subscribe to his channel. He's awesome guy. I Benjamin you. Same thing. It's like, it's just really putting in the work.  
Speaker 1    00:45:09    Right. A lot of people just want to do the easy things. The 80% that achieved 20% of the outcome rather than the 20% that she's 80% of the outcome. So probably those are the three big ones. Yeah. You know, it's funny. And I, you know, to be honest with you, I mean, early on in my career, I still think to some degree, I don't care how long you've been in sales or especially sales, obviously sales. I think there's still always that. I don't want to say fear, but there's still that you still making a cold outreach and in the case of what we've been discussing, you're warming it up. But like in the true case of cold outreach, there's the fear of uncertainty unknown. Like, I don't know what this person's going to say. I, I kind of do, cause I've heard it before. I kind of know the role.  
Speaker 1    00:45:51    I know the persona, but still there's still that unknown factor. And I actually think that you should lean into that. Like my thought process has always been called out. We used to have, I used to have a mentor many moons ago to like these, to incentivize us on how many nos who would get on a phone call. Like, like embrace the no, like embrace go away. I'm not interested. Like that would be a win for us because it got us to make more back then it was all dial for dollars. So you want us to make more dials? And the old saying was for every four nos, you're going to get one. Yes. Just do the ratios. So I think that fear of rejection still lives. I don't think it's still somewhere, even inside of me to this day. And I've done this for a long while, but it lean into it a bit and just, we're all human.  
Speaker 1    00:46:38    We're open to hear. No, the worst thing they can say to you is no, I can't take your right arm. I'm not going to take your right arm. So I think I, 100% agree with you. I would say the fear of rejection. I love what you said. Don't love what they sell. Like they don't believe in what they sell and it's hard to sell something you don't believe in. I think that's a good catch, Nico. I don't want people to talk about to me. Yeah. It's a lot of people see it for dollars. I, and I, I move, you know, as well as I do, it's very easy to look at a 20% commission of a $2.5 million deal. But if you hate what that deal does and whatever it is, I don't I've, I've heard everything. So, and actually the only thing I'll add is like, you might not understand the product, right?  
Speaker 1    00:47:21    Sometimes like, if you don't understand the product, it's hard to sell it. Right. It's hard to part, to be motivated, right? Pick your favorite hobby. You can talk about it for hours, hours, and hours. Right. And you were fired up for it. So that's why I may be some, somewhere in my subconscious, I just convinced myself. I really liked Legion. So what I do in my off time is Legion. Even though again, it's like, it's prospecting, it's selling is blah, blah, blah. Because I really just believed that I could help people. Is it I'll be candid. It's not always a hundred percent. Right. Some people just don't, it doesn't work for everyone. But if you were to take anything away from this podcast, it's this thing, I forgot. There's some book Sam somewhere about it, but it's just like, what would that look like? If it was easy?  
Speaker 1    00:48:02    Like, just ask yourself, like, what would sales look like if it was easy? Oh, someone's already teed up all the leads from him. Great. Then hire someone to tee up those leads for you. Hey, so let me ask you this, because we talked about this offline a few weeks back and we were going back and forth a little bit around. I think it was what we talked about earlier, the noise. And you said, Hey, it's easier. And I say, Hey, but hasn't, hasn't the technology. I'm just trying to think back through my notes. How does the technology may like salespeople lazy, like, and you had a good response to that. I don't know if you remember. Do you remember your response to it, Nico? Yes. Yes. Uh, I was like, it's PR it's made lazier salespeople easier. It's made the lazy salespeople easier. It's made better salespeople, more money. Exactly. Right. You know, as I thought about that, I've been actually chewing on that for, since we spoke about that and you're right. It's almost like it just exacerbates what you already are. If you, if you've been a lazy salesperson, it doesn't all of a sudden make you more productive. It's just going to make you lazier. If you're a great sales person, you're going to find a way to make you even better.  
Speaker 1    00:49:07    Again, that's like, you could play devil's advocate. You can go both ways. Right? You can make a really great salesperson who did an XYZ process, right. That killed at nine 90% close rate down to 10 because now they want to golf extra. And rather than like spending that money on hiring a setter, now you have like the email and now you're down to 10 and you know why? Because technology, right. That's awesome. Awesome, man. So final thoughts from the audience. Like I know you kind of gave a last one. You're like, Hey, listen, you know, just, if you get nothing else from this podcast, any other tips, tidbits that you'd like to leave the audience with most podcasts and, and some people think it's the best. And some people that people think is the worst. Find someone better, smarter than you. Okay. Cliche. Everyone says that, but find someone who's worse than you because it's going to do two things.  
Speaker 1    00:50:02    If I, and I do this right now, uh, I have a meeting later today with a person who rents a $200 million agency ARR. Right? That's a lot of money, right. Has a hundred staff. It's awesome. Cold slid into his DMS, cold, uh, willing to ask them some questions. Super nice. We're going to talk through it. Right? What did I do? I know I'm going to learn stuff about sales process and building. The first thing I did was I went to someone who just started their agency. Six months ago, they have three clients that do three K MRR. Now, why would I do that? Because I'm going to learn things from the CEO. Who's running this massive company about processes, systems, sales techniques, and I'm going to learn it. I'm going to write them down. I'm also going to now go to the person that I have and we can dedicate 15, 20 minutes a week to it and we'll teach them what I learned.  
Speaker 1    00:50:50    It forces me to really pay attention. Cause I know that I'm held accountable to learn. We have, we all have notebooks and notebooks and notebooks about stuff, but if I can take what he says right now and translate it to what she, what she needs to know, I'm going to learn it both ways. Now I'm becoming better. I'm giving karma right out. And I'm helping someone that can, you know, when they maybe helped me. So that's my biggest tip. Whether you're doing cold outreach, if you know, 1% more than the average person find a mentee, like help them out. Why not? It takes you 15 minutes a week. Like doesn't, don't do long commitments. If you're walking your dog called them. Right. But that's my best advice is like, go and learn from someone, learn from this podcast and then teach it to someone. Awesome, man.  
Speaker 1    00:51:36    You know, it's funny. You mentioned that because yeah, that was the actual, the reason why the kind of this podcast came about. I mean, it was really, I actually find, I learn more from these podcasts and probably, I mean, I'm hoping the audience learns a lot, but you know, the preparation and getting ready for this podcast with you and our talking points and then drilling down on those talking points, just to have some guidance, we keep this pretty organic, but I want to be knowledgeable on what we're talking about. It makes me learn. It forces me to think outside the box and say, Hey, we haven't tried that. That's worth trying, like get outside your comfort zone, learn, but then go implement in sometimes doing those things, which may be uncomfortable. Expand your horizon. So I think that's fantastic feedback, man. Yeah. And know that this is a long game.  
Speaker 1    00:52:25    Like this pod is probably not going to change your life. And if it did, like, it's probably Sam because I forgot some things I want to talk about. Right. But yeah, just to know that it's a continuous process. Like you will be a better salesperson, a better leader, better marketer after this podcast, after next week, after next month, then you were a year ago. So just know that it's a process. Like no one has ever used longer than me. Right. But he knows more about a lot. I know I'm very niche in what I do. He's very niche in what he does too. So like we get to learn from each other. So biggest advice, just continue learning and doing, I actually do the work like I'm implemented, so that's awesome. Hey, how does the audience connect with your Nico? And by the way, before, Nico kind of gives all that.  
Speaker 1    00:53:05    We'll have all this in the show notes, so we're not going to make you memorize it, but Nico, what's the best way to connect with you. Learn more about what you're doing. All that kind of fun stuff. Yeah. I'm Nico, the brain and ICO. D E B R U Y N on every platform. My email is nico@getbalancemedia.com just in the subject, say pod or wonder and I'll make it fun. So I do get quite a bit of those and just reach out. I mean, and I tell people this all the time to reach out to Sam too. I mean, it takes a lot of effort to make a pod like this. So give us both a shout, but yeah, seriously, like I'm all over. I'm always online, always trying to help people. So if I can and you think that's valuable. Great. Let's do it. Awesome. Well, thanks again, man. It was an absolute pleasure. I really enjoyed the conversation. Absolutely.  
Speaker 0    00:53:50    Thank you for listening to the sales samurai podcast with your host, Sam Capra, be sure you subscribe to our podcast and visit sales samurai.io and join the conversation. Access show notes and discover bonus content.  

Nico De Bruyn

Co-Founder @Boundless Media

Nico De Bruyn is the CEO of Boundless media and entrepreneur with a flair for leaving everyone he meets better off than he found them. Nico is focused on helping brands break through the noise to win more clients and live better lives.